Author Topic: Historic Model Picture/ Plus Excellent Pics from cannonmn's collection  (Read 1972 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun? I like this old historical photo, maybe one day the model will turn up in a collection somewhere. sure would like to see some close up color pics of it! This model was built by John M. Laughlin Union capt. of the 104th Pennsylvania. i don't know if his model survives, or has been lost through the years. I can only guess the reason he built it, maybe a hobby.......
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2008, 06:40:56 PM »
Yes, here's a better picture:



You probably won't believe this but I think I was offered that same model about 15 years ago.  The owner was not ready to price it himself, he wanted an offer and I made one, but he didn't take it.  Ten years later he called and told me he'd been offered some big money by someone in his area, and it was more than I wanted to pay, so I suggested he take the offer (I think he said he'd been offered $4K or something like that.)  The model was beautifully crafted and had a brass barrel and steel or brass carriage.  If the model was really the same one as is in the picture, it would be worth more than he was asking just because now we know who made it, information which was not known by the owner I talked to.  I'll start looking for the color pictures he sent me.

Offline Don Krag

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 365
  • Gender: Male
    • KragAxe Armoury
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 11:48:05 AM »
Try scanning as 256 shades of gray on a high resolution(1200 dpi). I had some books that showed the dreaded "spot" pattern when scanned as millions of colors, but looked fine as a 256/gray. This works well for me when I'm trying to look at fine detail on museum catalog photos. Of course, those are modern photos of old things...not old photos of old things! :)

I messed a bit with your pic...
Don "Krag" Halter
www.kragaxe.com

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 12:47:44 PM »
I can see now it isn't the same one I was offered.  The one I was referring to was definitely in the pattern of a Parrott 100 pounder or larger.  I'm not sure what model of siege or seacoast gun yours is, possibly "generic.".

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 02:57:01 PM »
 I don't have very much info on it, other than to mention that Capt. Laughlin survived the battle of Secessionville to pose with his model of a "seacoast rifle". kinda neat my g-g-grandfather's unit "CSA"  was at the same battle........ i like the picture and think it's great to see that other's, even back then liked to build working models. i'd bet a few dollars that Capt. Laughlin had a blast with his model, he looks very proud of it in the picture. so whatever it is, it's his version of it.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 05:47:12 PM »
     Perhaps Capt. Laughlin remembered those two 10" Columbiads he saw at Battery Wagner after Sept. 8, 1863.  His unit, the 104th Penn. Regiment had both engineering and combat assignments during their time on Johnson's, Folley and Morris Islands.  They even replaced another unit in the "Fourth Parallel" which is almost as close as you could get to Battery Wagner; they were also given the use of the "Requa Gun" for repelling Rebel counterattacks or raids.  Two men in his unit were mortally wounded while manning Fort Putnam, (Battery Wagner before Sept. 8, 1863), in a bombproof, when a Confederate shell from Johnson's Island penetrated it. 

     Ten of these New Columbiad Guns were made for the state of Georgia, alone.  Our copy of the "Beauregard Gun" present at the Federal siege of Fort Pulaski, shows the mod. common in these Confederate guns after 1861, the knob-style cascable.  A full size copy of this gun was created in fiberglass for use at the Fort Wagner set in the movie, "Glory".





Regards,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Victor3

  • GBO Supporter
  • Trade Count: (22)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4241
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #6 on: January 31, 2008, 01:45:18 AM »
 I wonder how often people come across an old photo like that one and make up something that looks similar with the intent to sell it as the original item.

 A friend of mine used to own a shop where he did restoration work on old Italian and German race cars. Some of these were ~$250K one (or a few) of a kind, hand-built cars. On several occasions we would sit down with a corroded old part and figure out how to reproduce it as close as possible to original. There was often no documentation for the original part anywhere, and my friend's customers would pay dearly for a faithful reproduction.

 I once asked my friend - "Do your customers ever try to represent these parts as originals?" He just smiled and said "I really couldn't say."
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline KABAR2

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2830
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #7 on: January 31, 2008, 02:47:57 AM »
Fortunately most skilled craftsman take enough pride in their work not to pass it off as anything but their own,
there will always be unscrupulous people who whether they make it themselves or get it after the fact will age an item and pass it off as the real thing.
Sometimes there is a fine line between a "restoration" and reproduction or an out and out fake.
A restoration should always be represented as such, weather it be a repair or replacement of parts,
too many times we see dealers who take a basket case gun replace components with original or reproduction parts to enhance it's value,
when doing restoration work it may be a good idea for the restorer to place a date mark or recognizable restorers stamp on
the new or reproduction parts to limit the options of the faker down the road.
Years ago a fellow brought me an 1866 Winchester that was missing both side plates,
I machined two new ones milled the loading slot and fitted and matched them to the gun,
I also added my initials and date inside where if removed would be obvious that they were replacement. 
The customer was annoyed with this arrangement but since it was the only way I would do the work he had no choice or find someone else to do it.
It is sometimes harder to add marks to items like a reconversion from percussion to flint but it can be done. woodwork is another issue.
I know of a case where a man had an original Austrian 58 cal rifled musket that had a small "VMI" carved along the lock mortise,
in "cleaning" the gun he almost obliterated the marking, in his zeal to repair the area around the lock ended up with multiple "VMI"s !
He ruined a historical item and corrupted it in an effort of enhancing its value.
I haven't done any restoration work in the past 15 years,
I may begin to do some as time permits, but I will be very selective of any projects I take on.

Sorry for going so far off topic but this is an topic I feel strongly about.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #8 on: January 31, 2008, 03:08:45 PM »
nobody has to worry about drifting on one of my topics, i'm easy to get along with. my whole thing with the picture is that i really think it's neat!!! every time i look at it,i wonder if the Capt. was making a prototype, or if he just wanted a model of something to have fun with???
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline seacoastartillery

  • GBO Sponsor
  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2853
  • Gender: Male
    • seacoastartillery.com
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #9 on: January 31, 2008, 04:26:14 PM »
     I still think the fairly smooth lines of the Capt.'s tube follow the 10", 1857 New Columbiad gun's lines or maybe the Confederate, 8" mod of the New Columbiad with large knob cascable. A helpful link to these is here:                       

                                              http://www.cwartillery.org/ve/seahow.html

The Confederate 10" would, off course look thicker along the chase and appear very similar to the "Beauregard Gun" photo previously posted above.  Yes, No, Maybe??

Regards,

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #10 on: January 31, 2008, 04:59:39 PM »
maybe he did just want a toy cannon to have fun with, maybe the image of the ones he saw was burned in his mind and he did the best he could to copy it.  i'd say you are right Mike and Tracy about what the Capt. copied for his model. why do you think he built it? i'm leaning towards fun.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 03:08:09 AM »
Speaking of models, here's a thread I started on another board regarding a Russian "Arsenal Model" cannon in the collection.  I've collected a few cannon models and kind of have them separated by "Arsenal Model," "Sslute Gun" "Toy" "Machinist Project" "Inventor's Model" etc.  I primarily go after what I think are arsenal models and inventor's models, but just about any very well-made, authentic piece gets my attention.

http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/webbbs_config.pl?read=86513

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #12 on: February 02, 2008, 01:59:46 PM »
 i've been dealing with the ice storm, but i haven't forgotten my manners, Thanks Everyone for the pics,links, comments.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #13 on: February 04, 2008, 12:58:50 PM »
Here's a response I got on another board, to post no. 11 above, regarding the Russian unicorn model linked in that post.  An Englishman saw my post on the other board, and relayed it to a Russian colleague, who wrote this.  I am going to read it over a few more times to fully understand it, but basically he's identified the full-size weapon this model represents.

Quote
This is from notes from a Russian colleague wrote (slightly amended).
5/16-pud unicorn = 12,5-pounder and is a little bigger then 1/4-pud = 10-pounder

11,09 kal (scale model) bore with chamber vs. 10,67 kal for 1/4-pud (foot artillery)
61.91 mm (scale model) approx. length vinograd (from rule in photo)
322.27 mm (scale model) approx. total length without vinograd
11.41 calibres (scale model) total length without vinograd vs. 11.00 calibres for pud (foot artillery)
trunnion = 0.67 calibre vs. same for 1/4-pud (foot)

bore = 28.24 mm (scale model)
This should be about 5,1 Russian inches for 12,5-pounder, so the scale of the model is near to 4,6 : 1
This scale should have some meaning, but I do not know it immediately.

It is probably a model of a Naval Unicorn with the cascabel adapted to mount as a pivot with a ring around it to elevate him.

I think he will be of the type with incendiary rounds mostly, with low charge. But may be also granat (shell).
The style is perfect of the M1805 year with the same rings and re-enforcements. These were simpler in new designs of after 1820 where the sides were clean. So 1790-1820, with emphasis on the end of this range (when there were more naval pivot systems)

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #14 on: February 04, 2008, 02:33:22 PM »
cannonmn, i'd like to see the other models you mentioned on post #11, a few pics of your favorites would be nice!!!
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #15 on: February 04, 2008, 03:52:04 PM »
Ok Lance, here's one.  This is a model of a 20" Rodman.  The model weighs over 200 lbs., and is 1/10 scale (2 in. bore).  The barrel weighs about 120 lbs.  and is about 30 in. long as i recall.  It was cast at Fort Pitt PA in 1864 and inspected by TJR, although the marks on the muzzle are now very faint.  I think it was cast in the same heat as one of the big 20 in, guns, although I haven't done much research on it to find out if that's true or not.  I have a 15" model that's set up the same, but that one's never rusted at all and the marks on it are sharp.  Having a model made out of the same pot of iron as the big ones is nice, but what was the original purpose of these models?  No living person knows as far as I can tell.

You may remember seeing one of these models along with some of my other stuff in the middle of the South Bend Replicas catalog from when Paul Barnett visited about 15 years ago.

Here are 3 pix of the same model.





Offline Terry C.

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1215
  • Gender: Male
  • I see what you did there...
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #16 on: February 04, 2008, 04:09:05 PM »
.. but what was the original purpose of these models?  No living person knows as far as I can tell.

A prize for some General's trophy room?

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2008, 05:23:46 PM »
cannonmn Thank You!!! Now that's what i'm talking about, COLOR pics!!! the little black and white in the SBR catalog doesn't do justice. i wonder if the models might have been like salesmen samples??? alot easier to carry in and do a presentation??? a few charts and cost figures thrown in with a promise that the full size ones will have the same quality??? that's my guess as to a purpose. Don't stop now, let's see another favorite!!!!
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: anybody got a better picture of this original seacoast gun
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2008, 06:06:37 PM »
OK, now ONLY if you promise to go to bed right after this story!

This was invented and patented  by Mr. Merrill of Merrill carbine fame, from Baltimore.  The model is about 28" long, x 12 high x 9 wide.  The breech is articulated so it moves as can see the pix.  The barrel is about 1.25 in. dia. and is rifled.  Merrill spent $500. to have this model made in 1859.  The government went into his factory in Baltimore and confiscated all his guns and this cannon, and it took Merrill a few years to get the cannon back, the gov't eventually paid for the rifles.  I have about a dozen letters between Merrill and the War Dept. discussing this cannon, and the Baltimore Sun article the day after the confiscation mentions the cannon being confiscated.  The model weighs about 50 lbs.








Goodnight Lance!

Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: Historic Model Picture
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 03:17:48 PM »
cannonmn, what a bummer!  i went to bed last night before you posted the Merrill. That is a beautiful model, have you ever test fired any of them? i'd have to at least once just to say i did. i'll try and stay up tonight incase you post another favorite. i don't even have a clue as to the value of your models....but if i had to pick which one i could have, based on my favorite so far, it would be the Rodman. What's your favorite model of all the ones you have?
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Historic Model Picture
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2008, 10:05:24 PM »
Favorite model?  I dunno got to think about that.  Shoot the models?  I shoot the cannons that were made to be shot, but most of the models weren't.  For instance, if they are true to scale, the vent will be a pinhole that won't work for shooting.

My favorite models (I've got a lazy streak) right now are those I already have pix of on the storage site, like this one.  This is a very large scale model 18th C. limber that I bought quite reasonably from a man who brought it to our gun club meeting.  Notice how every part is made out of the same materials as the full-scale one would be.  I think this model was made during the 18th. C. but it is hard to tell for sure.  I'm still trying to figure out exactly what nationality it is.

Do I ever wish I had the model cannon that was once with it!

Look closely at how the old-style wheels were put together, with bolts at the ends of the tire sections, and special flat nails all around.  I think they call that a strake wheel, but I'll have to go check a book to make sure.  The parts on this are so well-fitted it is a little hard to tell where the iron or steel ends and the wood begins.











Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Historic Model Picture
« Reply #21 on: February 06, 2008, 07:26:16 AM »
This model is all cast-iron, and has mechanical cranks for elevation and deflection.  It weighs about 80 lbs and the barrel is about 2 feet long.  There's a rack gear on the inside of the traverse arc, for half of the arc's length only.  It has three pairs of trunnions, one is "normal" and the other are attachment points for the elevating links.  All I can say to explain it is "go figure."  I took the pix before I knew about the powder can, so I used a coke can at that time.







Offline lance

  • Trade Count: (0)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1249
  • Gender: Male
Re: Historic Model Picture/ Plus Excellent Pics from cannonmn's collection
« Reply #22 on: February 06, 2008, 03:16:11 PM »
 cannonmn, Thank You Very Much for sharing some pics from your Excellent collection. I added you to the "subject", i feel that you have offered alot that deserves looking at!  I'm hopeful one day that i can get to meet you in person at a show, and see some of your artillery up close. It's not fair of me to keep asking you for pics, but i sure have enjoyed looking at them!!! Thanks Again.
PALADIN had a gun.....I have guns, mortars, and cannons!

Offline cannonmn

  • Trade Count: (1)
  • Senior Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3345
Re: Historic Model Picture/ Plus Excellent Pics from cannonmn's collection
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2008, 03:33:29 PM »
Thanks Lance, be glad to put up some more now and then, to at least use up the pix I've previously uploaded to the web.