Author Topic: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)  (Read 3955 times)

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Offline cannonmn

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Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« on: February 03, 2008, 03:08:08 AM »
Terry C. came up with an interesting picture from a book that shows a much larger version of this weapon on a test mount.  I knew the name Moffat in connection with this concept (I call this category "strap guns") but a little web searching indicates the proper name at the time was Hartley.  Apparently Moffat invented and Hartley marketed it?

http://books.google.com/books?id=3rwEAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=breech+loading+hartley+cannon+moffat&source=web&ots=xe1TJmK57a&sig=b-cL2cz_NzrjC6d_--q72pH8gJ4

Offline KABAR2

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #1 on: February 03, 2008, 03:18:34 AM »
That is an interesting design, it would be interesting to see if there are any patent documents on this, and if any official tests were done.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline Terry C.

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #2 on: February 03, 2008, 03:39:01 AM »
Thanks again for your help. After your last PM, I searched 'Moffat' (with one and two t's) without much success.

I need to get off'a my butt and contact the publisher to see if I can get (or need) permission to post the photo from the book.

For those curious as to what's been going on 'behind the scenes': In a book I bought myself after I got out of the hospital, The Pocket Book of Civil War Weapons, From Small Arms to Siege Artillery by Angus Konstam, I found a photo of a very curious breechloading cannon. This cannon was not mounted in a carriage but instead hanging by cables, leading me (us) to believe that this was a prototype gun.

The gun is HUGE compared to the one in the link above, but operation is similar. The breech is strapped to, and pivots on the trunnions.


The book gives no useful information about this photo or the gun except to say that it "appears to be a conversion."

Offline lance

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #3 on: February 03, 2008, 07:59:14 AM »
Terry C. just wondering if the cannon you are talking about is this one, the book i have says H.B.Mann. you should be able to double click the pic and read the print. If you do a "google" H.F. works better than H.B., must be a mistake somewhere???
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #4 on: February 03, 2008, 08:16:40 AM »
The lack of MASS of the breech mechanism says it's an early one.  (Not from an historical perspective, just from material strengths.)

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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #5 on: February 03, 2008, 09:49:51 AM »
Lance, that's the same photo.

"Mann" is another name that I've come across in the little snippets of information I've been able to search out.

Moffatt (sometimes with one 't', but more often with two)
Hartley
Mann

The plot thickens. Apparently there was a lot of interest in this design.

Offline lance

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #6 on: February 03, 2008, 09:59:21 AM »
Terry, i was doing a google, check out the old newspaper article, it's kinda neat also tells about the inventor H.F.Mann and his 8" breechloading "RIDE" gun, recon it's the same one in the pic? "ride" gun is a google mistake??? cause the 1865 newspaper it leads to says 8"breechloading RIFLE gun.
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Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #7 on: February 03, 2008, 02:57:01 PM »
I have some info on the testing of Hartley's cannon, at the Washington Arsenal ca. 1865, but can't lay hands on it now.  I know H.F. Mann's gun was at the Wasnington Navy Yard right after the Civil War, I saw it listed in an inventory, will have to find the paper again and see if there's any description at all.

On a related note, I call all the experimental breechloaders that have a pivioted breechblock pivoting on straps attached to trunnions, "strap guns" and there seem to have been many different designs.  I'd appreciate it if you all could look out for any info on this beast.  This is a working model of a strap gun with four trunnions and a counterweight to balance the breech.

This old model is 14 inches long, 6 in. wide, 5 in. tall, weighs 12 lbs.

Maybe I can get Dom to make me up an exact copy so I can shoot it and keep the original nice and clean.  He'd probably do it for a few hundred bucks, don't ya think?








Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2008, 03:13:56 PM »
I'm pretty sure  now the big gun hanging from a test A-frame in Terry/Lance's picture is an H.F. Mann.  It is the kind of test setup often used at Ft. Monroe, and the gun looks to be about 8".  That would make it match this article from the NYT, May 3, 1865:


Offline Terry C.

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #9 on: February 03, 2008, 03:29:21 PM »
I'm pretty sure  now the big gun hanging from a test A-frame in Terry/Lance's picture is an H.F. Mann.  It is the kind of test setup often used at Ft. Monroe, and the gun looks to be about 8".  That would make it match this article from the NYT, May 3, 1865:



I saw that in one of my searches.

The problem I've had is that I get hits on all of the names, but they are mostly vague and inconclusive. The illustration of the Hartley gun posted earlier is close but there are a lot of differences in the designs of the breech mechanisms.

Your model, with it's screw clamp on the breech, is much closer.

The reference to Mann in Lance's book is the first time I've seen any name directly linked to my photograph.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #10 on: February 03, 2008, 03:31:50 PM »
The second one looks a bit better (heavier) that the first.

Interesting designs - covering that period where the focus was on converting existing muzzle loaders to breech loading.

The same processes were taken in converting existing muzzle loading rifles and muskets to breech loading.  MANY articles in the Scientific American during the 1860-1870-1880's relating them.

(It was a brief period of history - not likely to be many examples, and most all would be different.)

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Offline Terry C.

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #11 on: February 03, 2008, 03:37:29 PM »
"ride" gun is a google mistake??? cause the 1865 newspaper it leads to says 8"breechloading RIFLE gun.

Could be a typo, or there could be even more details that remain to be discovered.

Judging by the shell sitting on the platform near the muzzle, it's definitely a rifle.

Offline dominick

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #12 on: February 03, 2008, 04:49:55 PM »

Maybe I can get Dom to make me up an exact copy so I can shoot it and keep the original nice and clean.  He'd probably do it for a few hundred bucks, don't ya think?


I would sure like to give it a try cannonmn.  Looks like an interesting project.   Dom

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2008, 05:00:29 PM »
Here's Mann's patent claim no. 2783 of 1861, see if this sounds like one of the pictures.  It turns out Mann was from Wisconsin, as were, I guess, Moffat and maybe Hartley.  Look at right hand column:

http://tinyurl.com/2gzeg9

Offline lance

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2008, 06:07:42 PM »
well i see you all found the old newspaper article that i mentioned. i think it's great that we can work together and try to find answers. i knew i had seen the cannon Terry C. was talking about, just had to dig out some books for a name. i'll help with historical info anyway i can, oh, last but not least,nice model cannonmn!!!!
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Offline Victor3

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2008, 08:37:42 PM »

Maybe I can get Dom to make me up an exact copy so I can shoot it and keep the original nice and clean.  He'd probably do it for a few hundred bucks, don't ya think?


I would sure like to give it a try cannonmn.  Looks like an interesting project.   Dom

 Dom,

 If you were to make barrels of similar design, I think you would have the only reasonably priced breech-loader available.

 Everyone here has a front-stuffer, but I doubt that 10% have a breech loader. I'd bet a cold soda that many of us here would buy a breech loader if we could afford one.

 Maybe you could do a prototype so we can see what one you can make would look like?

 Your French guns would be really neato with this breech design added to them...
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2008, 10:41:14 PM »
I looked at a larger image of the NYT article I put in post no. 8, before whatever evil web gremlins shrunk it, and it definitely says "rifle gun." 

Offline Eyes Of Death

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #17 on: February 04, 2008, 08:55:42 AM »
Oh great!! Now I have another project rolling around in my head. ;D

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #18 on: February 04, 2008, 05:37:23 PM »
OK I was thinking about this all day. ( see what you did ) But this might be do able and still be safe with out the huge breach. How about putting the powder chamber in the breach plug reduced chamber of coarse. That way you could touch off the powder with an open breach and all you wold have is a very short mortar. Their would be no way to lode the projectile in the breach, it would be of larger diameter. So no possible case of self contained projo. And like the other soda can tubes thinner barrel walls would be acceptable.

Offline Victor3

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #19 on: February 05, 2008, 02:53:26 AM »
OK I was thinking about this all day. ( see what you did ) But this might be do able and still be safe with out the huge breach. How about putting the powder chamber in the breach plug reduced chamber of coarse. That way you could touch off the powder with an open breach and all you wold have is a very short mortar. Their would be no way to lode the projectile in the breach, it would be of larger diameter. So no possible case of self contained projo. And like the other soda can tubes thinner barrel walls would be acceptable.

 Excellent ideer!

 I've been thinking about how to make the strap/breech plug arrangement more simple...

 If the breech plug were separate from the side straps (Not 'captive' as in the model cannonmn shows) the screw could be backed out and the strap assembly swung up and forward. The breech plug could then be removed for loading the powder chamber and easy cleaning.

 This arrangement would not require slots in the side straps nor lugs on the breech plug, which would make it much simpler to fabricate.

 The side straps would be two flat plates with a full radius on each end. Holes could be bored through one end of the straps to fit the rear trunnions on the barrel, and holes on the opposite end bored where a heavy round bar (drilled & tapped in the center for the screw) could be inserted and welded flush on the ends to the side straps.

 Also, the back end of the bbl could just be faced flat. A stepped diameter could be turned on the breech plug face to locate and center it to the bore. A full radius 'dimple' could be machined into the back end of the center of the breech plug for the end of the screw to locate into.

 I think the above would be one of the simplest ways to design the breech assembly, and with a minimum of tight tolerances or fancy machining required.
"It is a capital mistake to theorize before one has data. Insensibly, one begins to twist facts to suit theories, instead of theories to suit facts."

Sherlock Holmes

Offline dominick

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #20 on: February 05, 2008, 01:17:13 PM »
OK I was thinking about this all day. ( see what you did ) But this might be do able and still be safe with out the huge breach. How about putting the powder chamber in the breach plug reduced chamber of coarse. That way you could touch off the powder with an open breach and all you wold have is a very short mortar. Their would be no way to lode the projectile in the breach, it would be of larger diameter. So no possible case of self contained projo. And like the other soda can tubes thinner barrel walls would be acceptable.

 This concept is very similar to the 15th century Peterara pictured below.  The Peterara has a mug like removable breech that contains the charge and it is inserted into a "U" shaped breech frame and held it place by a wedge pin.  The Hartley breech is somewhat of a variation of this where it uses a  U shaped frame with a screw instead of a wedge.  It's not my first choice for a breech design if I were to build from scratch.  Dom


   

Offline MikeR C

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #21 on: February 05, 2008, 06:06:47 PM »
This is yet another design, Austrian. I can't decide if the strap retaining the breech pot swings up or not. I'm leaning towards not, it looks like the strap has a square hole. Also looks like it has a wedge that is either driven in, or is attached to the strap if it in fact swivels. This is approximately 100% cropped out of a page of pictures.



I would like to see pics carriages for these kind of barrels.

Thx
MikeR C

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2008, 10:21:13 PM »
I haven't seen this design before but it definitely looks like the strap pivots on the trunnion, so yes it swings up.  There is not enough clearance to get the chamber out otherwise, it appears, since the smaller-diameter neck on the chamber looks fairly long.

Offline dominick

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #23 on: February 06, 2008, 01:45:53 PM »
There is a breech loader That I seen a photo of in the South Bend catalog where there are two sets of trunions in line one set horizontal for mounting the barrel to the carriage, and one set vertical that has a pivot strap that swings to the side for loading.  Is that one of yours cannonmn?

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #24 on: February 06, 2008, 05:24:53 PM »
Mine isn't in that catalog but I have one just like you describe, and I have some paperwork on it.  Barney got that one in as a repair, and he had to make a breech plug for it.  The breech plug on mine is missing too.  I'll see I can find that rascal.

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2008, 06:50:14 PM »
George Brayton's Improved Breechloading Cannon of 1861.  Model is 13 in. long and has 0.60 smoothbore.  Weight of model is 16 lbs., made of bronze and steel, with hardwood base.







Offline KABAR2

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #27 on: February 07, 2008, 12:50:25 AM »
Hartley's design is interesting, do you have the breech for your model?

Also of note in the article is the false muzzle being used by Clark,
I have seen this on target rifles of the period,
but did not know anyone moved the idea on to artillery,
I doubt it would have ever found much favor as it was one more
step in the process of loading,
and another chunk of metal to keep track of in the heat of battle,
I imagine speaking of heat that it would become difficult to use
as the gun heated up at a different rate than the collar
which would start cooling off between shots,
I wonder if one of these cannon have survived even in model form.
Mr president I do not cling to either my gun or my Bible.... my gun is holstered on my side so I may carry my Bible and quote from it!

Sed tamen sal petrae LURO VOPO CAN UTRIET sulphuris; et sic facies tonituum et coruscationem si scias artficium

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #28 on: February 07, 2008, 01:12:22 AM »
Quote
wonder if one of these cannon have survived even in model form.
 
 

What I believe to be the original Hartley field gun, as tested by the Army ca. 1865, is in Virginia set outside in concrete.  I doubt many people who look at it really know what it is.

Offline cannonmn

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Re: Hartley's breech loading cannon (yes this is black powder)
« Reply #29 on: February 13, 2008, 07:27:57 AM »
Norman Eastman to Abraham Lincoln, June 1862 (Breech loading cannon)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Abraham Lincoln Papers at the Library of Congress. Transcribed and Annotated by the Lincoln Studies Center, Knox College. Galesburg, Illinois.
Norman Eastman to Abraham Lincoln, June 1862 (Breech loading cannon)
From Norman Eastman to Abraham Lincoln1, June 1862


Sir:--

In behalf of the surviving, and in fact, sole inventor, Capt. R. R. Moffatt, of La Crosse, Wis I wish to call your attention to the accompanying model of a Breech Loading Cannon--

The working of this Gun is so obvious to the most common mind, that it will hardly be necessary to refer you to the accompanying engraving and description--

The principal distinguishing features of this Gun, are, its simplicity of construction, its ease of working, and the ease with which its working parts can be kept clean. A common field piece of 6 or 12 lb. caliber, can be handled by two men. This advantage, is one, the importance of which is obvious to all.

The great desideratum, so long sought for in a "Breech Loading Cannon"; viz: "a perfect prevention of the escape of Gas," is here attained, as perfectly, it is believed, as is possible for human ingenuity to accomplish it, and at the same time secure ease of working and rapidity of handling In these respects it is believed to be immeasurably superior to any Gun in existence.

The rapidity with which this Gun can be safely fired -- twenty times per minute, by three men, shows its superior value, in every respect, over every known Gun, for use in fortifications, and on vessels of war--

The men who handle this Gun are safe from the many accidents which occur to those who handle muzzle loading Guns.

Finally, the ease with which the Breech Piece can be detached, and the Gun made useless in case of abandonment to the enemy, is worthy of notice

I might here stop, believing as I do, that all I claim for this Gun, will be apparent to you upon even a casual inspection of this model. However, one of these Guns, roughly made, has been partially tested, first at Chicago, Ill., next at Madison, Wis., & finally by order of the Ordnance Bureau at West Point.

To the following extracts from the statements of the various persons & officers, who witnessed these partial tests, I would most respectfully invite your attention, and more particularly to those of Major Smith, formerly of West Point, now of the 12th Infantry, & of Capt S. V. Benet, now of West-Point. As to the test at Chicago, see the statements of officers in accompanying Circular-- As to the test at Madison, -- Maj. R. S. Smith, says--

"I have carefully examined this Canon, and in strength, simplicity of construction, lightness, capability of rapid discharge without heating, it appears to me to combine all that is required in field artillery. Among its peculiar advantages are the great security from accidents to the small number of men working it; its total uselessness after removing the Breech-piece, & the perfect ease with which it can be unspiked.

J. H. McFarland, State Armorer, Madison, Wis, says --

After firing it sixty eight times -- "I believe the principle, & working of the Gun to be perfect and successful in all respects."

The late Gov. S. P. Harvey, pronounced the above "to be high authority" with him" -- & certified that McFarland was State Armorer.

Col. B. Allen. Col. 16th Reg't. Wis. Vol's. witnessed the trial of the Gun in McFarland's hands -- he says --

"I have no hesitation in pronouncing it a great improvement in Breech Loading Guns -- & I see no reason why it should not prove a very valuable & successful arm for military purposes."--

Col. Hans C. Heg, Col. 15th Reg't Wis. Vol's. & late State Prison Com'r.

" A. G. Maloy, Lt. Col. 17th " " &

Maj. Thos McMahon, Maj " " " all unite in recommending it to the favorable consideration of the Ordnance Department at Washington--

Hon. E. D. Campbell, late Lt. Gov. of Wis, who knows the inventor well, after endorsing at that had been said of it by the others -- says: --

"The last but by no means the least of its good qualities is the fact of the almost entire safety of the cannoniers while loading, there being no danger from a premature discharge, and the far less liability to danger from the enemy's sharp shooters--"

Augustus Gaylord, Adj Gen'l for Wis, says --

The exhibition of a new "Breech Loading Cannon" in this City by Capt. R. R. Moffatt, has been of the most satisfactory character. The extreme simplicity of its construction -- the ease & rapidity with which it may be discharged, & the entire freedom from difficulties by expansion or escapage of Gas, promise an effective arm for Artillery service, & render it in my opinion worthy the attention of Government." "I most cheerfully recommend Capt Moffatt to the favorable consideration of any interested in this branch of Military Service."

The Members of the Legislature of Wisconsin, having witnessed the various tests of this Gun, made under the Superintendance of J. H. McFarland, State Armorer, passed the following Joint Resolution--

Resolved -- by the Assembly, the Senate concurring --

That the experiments here made in firing the "Moffat Breech Loading Cannon" have been eminently successful. And, in view of the testimony adduced from Military men, to the utility of the invention, that the same be, & is hereby recommended to the War Department for such other or final tests as are by the laws of the United States authorized to be made at the public expense, under the supervision of the Ordnance Bureau".

The Ordnance Bureau having ordered the Gun tested at West Point, the only one now constructed was taken there from the West, by Capt. Moffatt. The Gun being a roughly constructed one, & there being no projectiles at hand to fit its bore, the test was a partial one -- with blank cartridges -- only testing the working of the breech arrangements, without any regard to its strength. The officer in charge, in his report to his superior, gives a description of the Gun, & the manner in which it operates. Not having tested it as to its strength, he expresses no opinion as to its merits-- However, he speaks very commendatory of it in several respects--

Capt. S. V. Benet -- of West-Point, to Brig. Gen'l J. W. Ripley, says --

"Seventy-two rounds were fired -- the last sixty without cleaning the Gun at all -- the breech arrangements fouled very much, though not enough to prevent its free & easy working. The last nine (9) rounds were fired in twenty-seven (27) seconds -- one man loading, & two men priming & firing-- x x x The Gun has this advantage, that the parts can be kept clean by the occasional use of a wet sponge. x x x x The invention is simple, easily repaired if deranged or broken -- its strength depends on the strength of the wrought-iron breeching or strap that holds the cone in place"--

Capt. Benet was inclined to admit the feasibility of this invention for field Guns, while he doubted the ability to construct, the breeching of sufficient strength for Guns of large Caliber. The inventor thinks there need be no apprehension on this score. The great question was to make the Gun light enough for field service & yet have the breeching sufficiently strong--

I would, most respectfully ask what Breech Loading Cannon there is in existence that will bear discharging Sixty (60) rounds in succession without cleaning and yet not foul enough to prevent its free & easy working, so easy -- that the last nine (9) rounds were fired at the rate of twenty (20) rounds per minute--

I would suggest that this invention is of suffient importance to warrant the Government in ordering the construction of a perfect Gun, & giving it a fair & thorough test--

All of which is most respectfully submitted on behalf of Capt. Moffatt--

Norman Eastman

Clerk--

No. 14, 1st floor Gen'l: Land Office


[Note 1 Eastman was a clerk in the General Land Office.]

_________________________

Here's what looks like the same ad we saw before, with the name changed in ink:

http://tinyurl.com/32raf2

Here's the original letter from Eastman to Lincoln:

http://tinyurl.com/2zu9ck