Thinking about predator/varmint hunting for fun and for fur

[KenSel]

With a really bad back and knees at the early age of 27, I'm finding my love of big game hunting is diminishing so I'm starting to focus on turkey, upland, squirrel, and rabbit hunting which I've done.  But I would like to start predator calling for yotes, foxes, and bobcats.  I've killed all of them before but wasn't actually hunting them.  I'm looking for advice on rifle, caliber, and other tools of the trade for hunting and cleaning up the furs to sell them.   I'll be hunting in Indiana and West Virginia and most of my shots will be 100 yards or less.  I'm thinking of using a 22Mag because it will do minimal pelt damage yet will still be effective on yotes with proper shot placement out to about 100 yards.  I like the Savage M40 in 22 Hornet and the H&R/NEF rifles but I would prefer more mag capacity because I've heard of more than one dog coming in to the call which is why I'm leaning towards my Marlin 22 Mag.  How often does more than 1 yote come running?  I've considered buying a rifle specifically for this and I've looked at the Rem SPS Varmint and the Savage 12FV & BTV they seem like great rifles for long range work but I don't really think I need the extra weight or the heavy barrel.  I've also looked at the Rem SPS sporter weight rifle as well as Savage and Stevens rifles chambered in 204, 223, 22-250, & 243.  I'm leaning more toward the smaller calibers though because of less pelt damage.  Also looked at the Knives of Alaska "Cub & Muskrat Combo" for caping my kills.  What do you use?

I appreciate any advice you guys with a lot of experience can give me. 
Thanks,
Ken 

[Catfish]

If your wanting a fur gun the best on the market would be the .17 Rem. 30 gn. bullets will make short work of coyotes and the 20 gn. Berger MEF`s won`t tear up fox. I have 3 different .17 centerfires rifle, 6 different .22 cal`s. and 2 .25 cal. I load and shoot. The one that does the least damage and still has enough for a coyote at 300 yrds. is the .17 Rem.  The .204 would be my second choice.

[jdwolf]

With a really bad back and knees at the early age of 27, I'm finding my love of big game hunting is diminishing so I'm starting to focus on turkey, upland, squirrel, and rabbit hunting which I've done.  But I would like to start predator calling for yotes, foxes, and bobcats.  I've killed all of them before but wasn't actually hunting them.  I'm looking for advice on rifle, caliber, and other tools of the trade for hunting and cleaning up the furs to sell them.   I'll be hunting in Indiana and West Virginia and most of my shots will be 100 yards or less.  I'm thinking of using a 22Mag because it will do minimal pelt damage yet will still be effective on yotes with proper shot placement out to about 100 yards.  I like the Savage M40 in 22 Hornet and the H&R/NEF rifles but I would prefer more mag capacity because I've heard of more than one dog coming in to the call which is why I'm leaning towards my Marlin 22 Mag.  How often does more than 1 yote come running?  I've considered buying a rifle specifically for this and I've looked at the Rem SPS Varmint and the Savage 12FV & BTV they seem like great rifles for long range work but I don't really think I need the extra weight or the heavy barrel.  I've also looked at the Rem SPS sporter weight rifle as well as Savage and Stevens rifles chambered in 204, 223, 22-250, & 243.  I'm leaning more toward the smaller calibers though because of less pelt damage.  Also looked at the Knives of Alaska "Cub & Muskrat Combo" for caping my kills.  What do you use?

I appreciate any advice you guys with a lot of experience can give me. 
Thanks,
Ken 

Actually the .22 Magnum isn't a good choice for hunting coyotes unless you can get consistant head shots at 75 yards or less.  The .22 hornet would be a better choice but the ammo can be hard to find and is somewhat costly. Your best bet would be a .223.  Ammo is fairly cheap and pelt damage wouldn't be an issue.

[kevthebassman]

Your best bet would be a .223.  Ammo is fairly cheap and pelt damage wouldn't be an issue.

I think that the .223 is a poor choice, especially when considering distances of 100 yards or less and shots at foxes and bobcats.  You had it right the first time.  .22 Hornet or .17 Rem, or one of the other .17 centerfire rounds would be a good choice, especially if you have the occasional run-in with a cat or fox. 

I always cringe when I hear people push the .223 because ammo is "cheap."  If you want to go do mag dumps, buy a 10/22 and you can buy ammo for pennies.  If you want to reliably harvest fur bearers with minimal pelt damage for maximum profit, invest in the proper caliber to do so.  How many boxes of ammo would you have to buy to offset the cost of blowing up a prime bobcat that comes in from an unexpected direction and pops out at 15 yards?

I'll step off my soap box now. 

[AtlLaw]

How much pelt damage do you experienced types think a 55 gr. NBT out of a 243 @ about 4K fps will do?  That's the load I've worked up.

Don't want to hijack Kensel's thread, but since he got attention...

[Ladobe]

I can just about say I have used them all in over 5 decades of predator calling.   22 rimfires, 22 Hornets and all sorts of big game rifles for a while before I started buying/building rifles and specialty pistols specifically for predator/varmint hunting.   Was stuck on the 224's mostly but also 243 and 257 wildcats for a long time until I got my first 17 many, many years ago.   Now I own eighteen 17 caliber rifles and specialty pistols, and they are my go to's for predator hunting.    The others just collect dust in the safe.   The 17 Rem is just about the perfect coyote medicine as already suggested, or one of the wildcats that match its ballistics's.    It's a little hard on fox though.   With your shorter ranges you might consider the 17M4 (17 Rem Fireball) or even the 17 Ackley Hornet.    Both are very fur friendly, even on fox, and both will easily anchor them at the ranges you will be shooting, and well beyond.   Don't own one but some swear by the 204 Ruger.   Never saw a need for one with three 17 Rems already on hand.   Although I won't recommend it as a great choice, especially for the bigger eastern coyotes, even the 17HMR will anchor coyotes at 100 yards with well placed shots.

As for double/triples, I'd worry about it more if you get to where you actually get multiples to come to your calls with any regularity, AND in country open enough to get them stopped for follow up shots.    
 

[KenSel]

I think the 17Rem Fireball may fit my needs pretty well,  I already have a few 22 Mags and they've proved to be very effective on foxes and bobcats out to about 100 yards for me so I think the 17 or 204 will fill the gap for me.  I was also looking at getting the 17HMR for this use as well as squirrels, coons, and groundhogs, but it's hard for me to justify buying one when I own so many 22 Mags.   I'll do a little researching on the 17RF and 204 and I may dig into the HMR a little more too.

Ken

[KenSel]

Oh, I forgot something.  I would normally under ideal circumstances would take mostly head shots (I normally shoot the base of the ear) but I know that a lot of the times when calling the yotes don't stop moving long enough to give you a head shot so a shot to the heart/lungs is your best bet.  My question is; Under perfect conditions with an animal standing perfectly still, where is the best place to shoot them if your wanting to save the pelts?  I would thing the ear would be the best place but I've never saved or sold pelts so I'm not sure.

Thanks again for the advice,
Ken

[kevthebassman]

How much pelt damage do you experienced types think a 55 gr. NBT out of a 243 @ about 4K fps will do?  That's the load I've worked up.

Don't want to hijack Kensel's thread, but since he got attention...

Can't say I've ever used a load like that but if I had to guess I'd say that load would put big big holes in coyotes, blow the everloving hell out of bobcats, and probably blow foxes in half.  That's a whole lot of energy.  There may be a puddinhead or two out there who had that load work for them, once, and advocate it, but as far as I'm concerned, you're best to stick with a round that falls between the .204 Ruger and .17 Rem Fireball.

Oh, I forgot something.  I would normally under ideal circumstances would take mostly head shots (I normally shoot the base of the ear) but I know that a lot of the times when calling the yotes don't stop moving long enough to give you a head shot so a shot to the heart/lungs is your best bet.  My question is; Under perfect conditions with an animal standing perfectly still, where is the best place to shoot them if your wanting to save the pelts?  I would thing the ear would be the best place but I've never saved or sold pelts so I'm not sure.

Thanks again for the advice,
Ken

I can't speak for everyone, but I skip the fancy stuff like trying to pull off head shots.  The coyotes I've seen never stand in one place long enough for me to draw a bead on their head.  I always go for the lung shot, as that gives you plenty of mass to shoot through for your bullet to spend it's energy and turn vitals into jelly without putting a big hole in the other side.

Also, when you pulverize their head, skinning gets tougher.  So much so that when I have occasion to use my kill gun on a cripple, I go for the lung shot to avoid the mess associated with opening up the brain box.

[Glanceblamm]

especially when considering distances of 100 yards or less and shots at foxes and bobcats.  You had it right the first time.  .22 Hornet or .17 Rem, or one of the other .17 centerfire rounds would be a good choice, especially if you have the occasional run-in with a cat or fox. 

This say's a lot when you consider predators that are taken within Calling Ranges and not those that are taken by chance.

[kevthebassman]

To answer your question on what knife I use, I picked up the habit of using the $6 Wal-Mart 4 inch fillet knife from a fellow I know who does a lot of trapping and calling and occasionally skins for a fur buyer.  He swears by it and I'm not one to argue with a man who has skinned so many critters over his lifetime.

[KenSel]

kevthebassman, thanks for the input about the head shot.  I never considered how messy and difficult it would be to skin. Also never thought about a fillet knife, it does sound wierd but how can you argue with experience and wisdom?.  Now I know why my Grandpa used to take every knife I gave him and grind it on a stone until it looked like half the blade was missing.

Well after looking at bullet and ammo reviews and prices on midway last night I'm more confused than ever.  Every review I read on 17, 204, and 22 cal V-max and other varmint bullets say they are explosive and devastating.  This sounds like it would put a huge entrance hole and no exit hole.  Would it be better to have a very small entrance and exit hole instead of an entrance hole you can stick a grapefruit in?  I was thinkin (please be polite, I'm just trying to figure it out) that a 223 or 22-250 loaded with a FMJ or even a PSP would be better for minimizing pelt damage.  What bullets are you guys using in your 17s', 20s', and 22s'?  From what I saw it looks like the 22 hornet would be about the best choice for saving pelts and would be perfect for calling ranges.  Even though I'll probably never have a need for it I would like a rifle that shoots very flat out to 300 to 400 yards like the 204 Ruger; what kind of wind drift could be expected at those ranges with this caliber?  Like I said before, I really don't need it, but it'd be fun to punch paper with and to pretend I'm back in Iraq and the crow,coyote, etc. is a terrorist.  

Thanks for all the input and advice guys, please keep it coming.  I want to buy a rifle before I leave the base because I can get it about $50 cheaper here than I can in the civilian world.   Oh and you guys may get a laugh out of this; I asked the base pig hunting expert what caliber I should get for yotes so I could save the pelts and I mentioned the 17, 204, & 22-250 and he says "those aren't any good, they'll just cripple a coyote!  You need a 243 with a 75 gr. V-max bullet."     This is the same guy that told me a 110gr. TSX traveling 3500fps out of my 270WSM wasn't good for anything bigger than antelope and that I should use a 30 Mag with 180gr. bullets for hogs.     Anyway thanks again for the GOOD advice I'm getting from you guys.

Ken

[jdwolf]

Your best bet would be a .223.  Ammo is fairly cheap and pelt damage wouldn't be an issue.

I think that the .223 is a poor choice, especially when considering distances of 100 yards or less and shots at foxes and bobcats.  You had it right the first time.  .22 Hornet or .17 Rem, or one of the other .17 centerfire rounds would be a good choice, especially if you have the occasional run-in with a cat or fox. 

I always cringe when I hear people push the .223 because ammo is "cheap."  If you want to go do mag dumps, buy a 10/22 and you can buy ammo for pennies.  If you want to reliably harvest fur bearers with minimal pelt damage for maximum profit, invest in the proper caliber to do so.  How many boxes of ammo would you have to buy to offset the cost of blowing up a prime bobcat that comes in from an unexpected direction and pops out at 15 yards?

I'll step off my soap box now. 

I've never been able to call in a coyote in under 100 yards. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just haven't been that lucky. Most of my kills have been over 100 yards (200 - 300 yards).  I'll agree with you that a .22 hornet or .17 remington will get the job done out to 200 yards and that's pushing the limit on those two calibers. Past that range you may as well throw rocks at them. 

As for using a 22LR for coyotes, well, I look at it like this.  A real hunter knows and uses the proper caliber for the game animal he is hunting.  However, there are idiots out there that are convinced they can kill any game animal they want to with a 22LR. 

[kevthebassman]

kevthebassman, thanks for the input about the head shot.  I never considered how messy and difficult it would be to skin. Also never thought about a fillet knife, it does sound wierd but how can you argue with experience and wisdom?.  Now I know why my Grandpa used to take every knife I gave him and grind it on a stone until it looked like half the blade was missing.

Well after looking at bullet and ammo reviews and prices on midway last night I'm more confused than ever.  Every review I read on 17, 204, and 22 cal V-max and other varmint bullets say they are explosive and devastating.  This sounds like it would put a huge entrance hole and no exit hole.  Would it be better to have a very small entrance and exit hole instead of an entrance hole you can stick a grapefruit in?  I was thinkin (please be polite, I'm just trying to figure it out) that a 223 or 22-250 loaded with a FMJ or even a PSP would be better for minimizing pelt damage.  What bullets are you guys using in your 17s', 20s', and 22s'?  From what I saw it looks like the 22 hornet would be about the best choice for saving pelts and would be perfect for calling ranges.  Even though I'll probably never have a need for it I would like a rifle that shoots very flat out to 300 to 400 yards like the 204 Ruger; what kind of wind drift could be expected at those ranges with this caliber?  Like I said before, I really don't need it, but it'd be fun to punch paper with and to pretend I'm back in Iraq and the crow,coyote, etc. is a terrorist.  

The .17 Rem makes a .17 caliber entrance hole, and if you put your shot in the boiler room and aren't too close, no exit hole.  Turns the insides into jelly.  I have a buddy who also shoots a .17 Rem and he handloads for me.  We both use the 25 grain Berger match hollowpoint.  There are bullets out there that will do what you described, and put a grapefruit sized hole right at the surface, but the Berger is better suited for coyote sized game.

FMJ rounds are lousy for killing.  A pencil hole all the way through will kill, but coyotes can cover a whole lot of ground in a short amount of time. 

As far as wind drift, it's going to be bad at 300 yards no matter if you're using a .243 or a .17.

I've never been able to call in a coyote in under 100 yards. I'm not saying it can't be done, I just haven't been that lucky. Most of my kills have been over 100 yards (200 - 300 yards).  I'll agree with you that a .22 hornet or .17 remington will get the job done out to 200 yards and that's pushing the limit on those two calibers. Past that range you may as well throw rocks at them. 

JD we call in two very different areas.  Three if you count the occasional trip to Southern Arizona.  For me, a shot on a called coyote will very rarely be over 150 yards, with the majority being less than 100.  I know for sure of coyotes being dropped in their tracks out to 300 yards with a .17 Rem, but I'd never take a shot at something that far away in the first place because it's outside my ability under field conditions, and because I agree with you that it probably is outside the effective range of the .17 Rem.

As for using a 22LR for coyotes, well, I look at it like this.  A real hunter knows and uses the proper caliber for the game animal he is hunting.  However, there are idiots out there that are convinced they can kill any game animal they want to with a 22LR. 

I couldn't agree more.  Rimfire cartridges are for killing tin cans, rodents, and dispatching trapped, treed, or crippled animals.

[KenSel]

thanks again kev!  I'm either gonna get the Rem 700 SPS in 17Rem Fireball or the Rem 700 SPS Varmint in 204 Ruger. I have to get me a good 22 hornet rifle one day but I want something with a little more range right now for punching paper.   Any advice on calling; what calls, when to call, and how to/how much to call?  I know in WV yotes and cats both come in to turkey calls pretty often and coyotes will come in to fawn bleats  but I don't know much about rabbit squealers and pup and howler calls.

Ken

[kevthebassman]

Well, the little green Lohman Circe is what I started calling with, and I still use it.  You can make a pretty good range of calls with it considering that it's a closed reed caller.  I've never had good luck with a howler, but then again I don't howl much anyway.  Open reed is the way to go because of the flexibility in sounds you can make.  If turkey calls are working, try those too!

With mouth calls, I usually call for a minute and sit for two, then call again.  I don't think it makes much difference but I know that I don't have enough wind to call continuously.  If using a digital I let it run.  Calling session length is determined by how much area I have to cover.  In Arizona, where you can make as many stands in a day as you have a mind to, we call 15-20 minutes if we feel like moving fast.  At home in Missouri where my calling spots are few and far between, I call for a half hour minimum.

As far as when to call, any time you have time is a good time!  I myself usually only go after them during the winter months so that I can get the prime fur, but they can be called and killed all year long if you've a mind to.

You're on the right track as far as calibers go, but if I were you I'd also check out a CZ rifle before you spend money.  I bought one used from a buddy and now I'm completely sold on them, damn accurate rifles.  Point is, look at all your options before you buy.

[KenSel]

kev thanks for the advice on the calling.  As far as the CZ rifle goes, I've handled one with the single set trigger and loved it and I really like the maple stock but it's only offered on the 223.  Where are the CZs' manufactured?  I'd rather use an American manufacturer like Rem, but if the price and quality is right then I will take an import.

Ken

[kevthebassman]

kev thanks for the advice on the calling.  As far as the CZ rifle goes, I've handled one with the single set trigger and loved it and I really like the maple stock but it's only offered on the 223.  Where are the CZs' manufactured?  I'd rather use an American manufacturer like Rem, but if the price and quality is right then I will take an import.

Ken

CZ's are made in the Czech Republic, but they are damn fine firearms.  I'm not particular on where my guns come from, just so long as they work, which the CZ does.

If you absolutely must have the maple stock, you can always get a .223 rebarreled to .17 Rem, it's the same bolt face unless I'm mistaken.  A competent gunsmith should be able to get it done for you for a reasonable price, depending on how nice of a barrel you put on it.

The Remingtons are pretty good guns, and I'm told that they can benefit from some trigger work and glass and pillar bedding as well.  I've only owned one Remington (Model 7 in .243) and times got tough and I had to sell it before I ever got to put a round down the tube. 

[KenSel]

I've owned several Remmies over the years and they have all been very accurate and extremely reliable and the one time I did get a lemon they're customer service was outstanding and fixed the problem in about a week.  I did take a gander at CZ's website last night and I noticed that they offer the 527 American chambered in the 22 hornet and it is also available with a maple stock!!!  Since a 22 hornet was my first deer rifle and I'm fond of that little round and CZ offers it in a repeating bolt rifle with maple, walnut, fancy walnut, and a bunch of other stock configurations then I'm definitely going to give it a closer look.  I wish I could find pictures of the different wood stocks, I'd really like to compare the different types of walnut and maple.  I have a feeling I'm going to own one of the CZ hornets in the near future, and I'll save up and get the 17RF or 204 later down the road.  dangit'  kev you just had to tell me about the CZ didn't you!   here I thought I had it all figured out and was only going to get one rifle.

Ken

[kevthebassman]

This smallbore stuff is addictive.  You'll never get out of it with just one rifle.  The dang things are just so fun to shoot!

[colocowboy76]

out here in Cali the dogs dont have good fur, so that isnt too big a problem useually.  So I use me savage 243 with my home brewed 58gr v-max moving at 4000 fps.  I have shot a few with my 17 hmr, but I do think that is a little lite unless you are under 75 yrds.