M-1 carbine vs. Rem 7600 in .223.

[mannyrock]

 
   OK Guys,  here is a hard one.

   Assume:

    1.  That you live in a semi-rural area, lots sizes from 1 acre up to 50 acres. (Mine is 3 acres)

    2.   That you are over 50, and your eyes aren't too great anymore.  Can still line up iron peep sights at 100 yards, but things get fuzzy pretty quickly. Impossible to line up blade and post sights with any accuracy.

    3.   That you are concerned about engaging threats at anywhere from point blank to 200 yards.

    Which is the better all around self-defense option?   An M-1 carbine with its peep sight and  factory soft-points, or a Remington 7600 pump with a 2.5 power scope, in .223 softpoints?    (M-1 carb would have std 15 round mag, and Remington would have an aftermarket 8 or 10 round mag.)

    Thanks for all opinions.  (Please don't push me to a different platfrom, especially an AK or SKS.   :-)  )


Regards,

Mannyrock

[mcwoodduck]

  Your not under gunned with either.
Remington has a new Pump gun out that accepts AR -15 mags.  That would get you up to 20 or 30 223 rounds.

[torpedoman]

peeps work great, i'm assuming that you are thinking a defense weapon  unless you can afford night vision a scope on a rifle makes it useless after dark and i'd hate to have to ask the bad guy to come back in the daytime.

[SharonAnne]

it is the Remington model 7615 that takes AR15 mags. I would recommend an ACOG of 1.5--2x. Illuminated aiming point requires no batteries and works very well in low light. Our troops in the sandbox love them.

[mannyrock]

 

  Thanks for the info guys.  I must confess that I didn't give much thought to what happens when it gets dark.  But, from my 35 years of hunting, I have found that a high quality, low power, scope will add 30 minutes before sunrise, and 30 minutes after sundown, to your ability to shoot.  You can actually see quite well with these in pre-dawn and twighlight.

  On the other hand, I have found that I can't even see through a peep site worth a darn until 30 minutes after sunrise, and then  I can only see until 30 minutes before sunset.

  So, for me at least, a good scope adds one additional hour for low light shooting, compared to a peep.

[SHOOTALL]

I love my carbine but it replaced a handgun in war not a rifle . At 200 yards i would want the 223 rifle . Much past 50 yards the 30 carbine is not much on a deer and a 223 is . I use the deer example because i have not shot a human with either .  For what its worth a red dot sight may work well and be cost effective . and a peep can be installed on the Remington .

[phalanx]

Red dots are nice ,but the Eotech 552 is the best one i have ever came across if you can afford it. I even have a Leupold CQT ,and it is one great sight / scope ,but you are still looking through a tube , and it is hard to do if you need quick acquisition on targets .  The red dot Aim points i had just were not real accurate but they are getting to be the older technoligy . The reason i like the  EoTech is it is more like a big window with a donut and cross hairs ,so target acquisition is fast ,and it is surprisingly accurate.
Another plus is it doesn't effect you if you are using open sights ,you turn it off and look right through it. They are great with flip up sights.
And in low light or even dark conditions where sights are useless you can find and hit targets .
As far as rifle  ,if you are talking 200 yards or city involvement in a carbine ,i like the 7.62x 39 , 223 is OK if you can use the heavy bullets . and if you don't want an AK
Robinson Arms now has the XCR in that round and so do some others.
My XCR is in 223 and it has been a good rifle , an LRB tanker would be nice also but they are big $$$$$$

[mannyrock]

 

    Well, this is getting interesting.

    On the power issue, just using the deer example, the .223 is illegal in most states for deer hunting, because it is viewed as having not enough bullet cross section.  On the other hand, the .30 carbine is legal in most states for deer hunting. 


      Interestingly enough, soft point factory loads make the .30 carbine a totally different animal than one using  fmj.   At 100 yards, the .30 carbine hits with more foot pounds than a .44 magnum at point blank range, and  is pushing a 110 grain soft point that mushrooms very well.  As for penetration, I have heard that the fmj  ammo is very penetrating and will go right through a car door.  It will also go through both sides of a 55 gallon metal drum.


    The problem is, I think that an m-1 carbine would be hard to put a scope on.  I have heard that the snap-on base mounts, like those made by SK Industries, are junk.

     The 7.62 russian is clearly the better round for the parameters I listed, but I don't think I would want to buy such a serious looking assault style rifle.


     On the other issue,  what is an XCR?


Thanks, Mannyrock

[SHOOTALL]

mannyrock , the 30 carbine is close to the 375 mag. never heard it compared to the 44mag.

[mannyrock]

Shootall,

  You are totally correct. My memory was wrong.

     In looking at the ballistic charts in my book, I see that the m-1 carb has more foot pounds than a .44 mag (from a pistol) at point blank range,, and at 100 yards still has the same foot pounds as a .357 magnum from a pistol at point blank range.   Still, to me, very  impressive. (I can't see someone remaining in a fight after getting hit with a .30 caliber soft point with 550 foot pounds, unless they were wearing body armor.   And even if they were  wearing body armor, I'll bet they would withdraw very quickly!) 

    At 200 yards, I think the m-1 carb still has about the same foot pounds as a .38 special at point blank.  Still not a bad number, given that the purpose is a defensive weapon, and not an offensive one. 

  I loved the movie "The Thin Red Line", but I had to cringe at the scene where two guys of the guys carried M-1 carbines up the hill, on the speciall mission to assault the heavily fortified (and heavily manned) machine gun bunker! And worse, they were dropping Japanese soldiers stone dead with one shot hits.  :-)

Regards,  Mannyrock

[SHOOTALL]

MANNYROCK , FIRST I LIKE THE 30 C. the carbine is twice the energy at 200 yards as the 38 spl. at the muzz. 30c-399, 38spl ( 158 gr)-200 . From the Winchester chart
the 44 at 100 ( 240 gr. bullet )620 ,30c. 622 . interesting .
but at 200 yards the Rem. better have the advantage in accy. and as we were given only the two to choose from ...........
and yes in alot of states it illegal to hunt deer with a 223 . Like speeding it happens . I have killed a few deer with the carbine , small does with in 50 yards no problem . Larger bucks not my first choice at any distance , don't ask how i know ! THANK YOU !
I live on just such a lot as decribed surrounded by 40 to 5 ac. lots with a 4000 ac. track touching one corner of my lot .

When things go bump in the night , i grab the 870 .or the Gloch 10 mm !

[phalanx]

This is an XCR


This is their M96


Both of these rifles are multi Caliber platforms , Gas Piston uppers ,Robinson Arms was doing that when the others were only talking about it.
They are a small company ,but they have been around a long time ,The owner is said to be as eccentric as Col. Colt was , but a lot of people say he seems to always be on the leading edge of things to come.The XCR replaced the M96 ,It combined the best of all worlds in one rifle .The gas system of an FN LAR ,the Bolt of an AK ,and the lower of an AR.  When i bought it i was thinking about the Sig556 ,but i read some bad press about the quality control of the first rifles ,and most reviews then said the XCR had the Sig beat 2 to 1 . I was hesitant at first ,but i bought it ,and i have never regretted it. And trust me if it was a dog i would be telling the world .
It is incredibly,accurate ,line of site is better than my AR ,ergonomics are the best i have ever had in a 223 , it is easy to clean ,and in 8,000.00 rounds i have had not one single failure .I have shot wolf , cheap trash from discount stores ,and everything in between including  72 Gr JHP reloads loaded hot.
They now offer the 7.62 conversion kit for them as well , and like all their rifles the barrel takes about 5 seconds to R&I.
The M96 , This gun is a exact clone of the Stoner M63 used by the SEALS during Viet Nam , it is the rifle they said should have been used instead of the M16 POS.
Eugine Stoner liked Robinson ,and let him recreate his rifle , in every gun review i read they all said that this was the finest assault rifle in the world .I couldn't find on bad press on it . It was the last American all steel receiver made ,not including the M1s , they were hand made and labor intensive for the cost they sold for .
I like it better than my H&K 93 ,it is like holding a M60 and is very impressive in person.  Robinson stopped production of them last year ,parts were a concern but they will still sell parts .Knight Arms another Stoner bunch said they were going to start making parts also ,and start making the 308 kits ,and the belt feed kits for this rifle .
Like the XCR ,i have about 2500 rounds through it ,no problems at all. they were not selling well on Gun Broker ,but all of a sudden they went like hot cakes and still are.
Why? Because these rifles are well made big time ,and they can become a 308 ,a 7.62 x39 ,223 ,6.5 REM , and they have no plastic or alloy any where on them except the stocks.

[mannyrock]

  Shootall and Phalanx,

    Thanks for the detailed info.

    Geez, Shootall, as you said, it looks like the .30 carbine has about 400 ft. pounds at 200 yards.  About the same foot pounds as a .40 S&W round at point blank.  (I know the carbine isn't .40, but still, I believe that a person hit with a 110 grain .30 caliber soft point with this power is gone, down, out of the fight, bleeding bad.)   As for accuracy, I have seen lots of young guys, with good eyes, shoot 2 inch groups at 100 yards from the bench with m1 carbines.  I think that as a rough  military rifle, they are kind of renouned for their accuracy.

    Phalanx, thanks for the detailed information on the more serious rifle. I read some reviews, and all were excellent.
   
   As kind of a different direction, has anyone heard anything new on the FNAR semi-auto in .308?  After the FN press release in January, I have heard nothing, seen nothing.   If a stock without pistol grip were available, I think they would sell lots of them.  (I know you would want to crucify me, but if I had one, I wouldn't think twice about sawing off the pistol grip.  I assume it is solid, and not hollow.  But, who knows?) .



Regards, Mannyrock

[phalanx]

Manny if you have an M1 Carbine there is nothing wrong with those either.
We were just making comparisons , It isn't so much what a rifle can do ,but what you can do with it.
I like the M1 carbine better than a Mini 14 ,but that is just me.
If you like the Gun ,and sights for your eyes are the problem ,go to M14 Forums .com
They have an entire section on the M1 Carbine ,and vender's ,and i am sure someone there knows a way to help you.
A lot of company's make different sights for them.

[SHOOTALL]

I would rather carry the carbine !

[S.S.]

Opening the aperature slightly on the rear sight with a small drill bit makes getting on target with the
little M1 carbine quite a bit faster. Inside of 150 yards it is a man killer. The blunt roundnose FMJ creates
a formidable wound far beyond what you would expect.

[PA-Joe]

I would recommend that you consult a good attorney regarding your state's Use of Force standards. Use of force within a 10 foot bedroom is ok in most states, beyond that you will be in trouble trying to make a self defense arguement. Shooting at someone 200 yards away is not self defense!!! That is hunting or a revenge/retreating shot and you will be in trouble.

For self defense at close ranges get a lazer sight! In most cases when someone sees a red dot on their chest they will give up very quickly.

[Savage]

From the original post, I assume this is a defensive long arm we're looking at here. The 7600 gets the nod for the 200yd work, with a sight change of course. (Post and notch) It uses a more readily available and more powerful round. The downside is the size, weight, limited capacity, and action type. The carbine has better irons, and is accurate to hit a man sized target out to 200yd or so in the right hands. The carbine is shorter, lighter, and higher capacity, with an autoloading action. The round it fires is in the pistol class, but would be adequate out to 200yds or so with decent hits. I have fired a dozen or two on the military range, and seen hundreds more fired. I have never seen one that would group 2" with any ammunition at 100yds. The one I have now was made by Winchester, and in excellent condition. On a good day it will group in 4" with good ammo. That's more than adequate for the purposes stated by the OP. There are better platforms for what mannyrock wants, but he doesn't want one of those Evil Assault Rifles--------Oh wait!!! The liberals think the M1 Carbine is an Assault rifle!!!! Better get the 7600 before anything that fires more than one shot becomes an assault rifle!
Savage

[222]

In your situation how about 7600 in 308 better for deer and thugs than either the 30 carbine or the 223? I would be happy with 30-30 if I was fearful of the jury. For myself I have chosen my 870 with buck shot and RZ10 10mm for defense.