How hot is hot?

[SHOOTALL]

with heavy bullets the performance in a say Ruger Redhawk 45 colt can come close to what you can get out of a 454 super Redhawk with certain powders . due to the depth of the seating of the bullet the longer case is negated and the performance spread closes . Graybeard eluded to the straight wall case and heavy bullets to which I agree with the exception of 454 class rounds where due to case capacity they also excel with light bullets being driven to high speed giving flat trajectory as a by product . you gain little shooting white tail deer with a 454 over a 45colt at short yardage , but having a gun that shoots flat helps at say 100 yards and beyond IMHO !

[Graybeard]

Graybeard eluded to the straight wall case and heavy bullets to which I agree with the exception of 454 class rounds where due to case capacity they also excel with light bullets being driven to high speed giving flat trajectory as a by product .

While I do understand where you are coming from high speed and flatness of trajectory are relative terms. Do you consider the .30-30 to be a high speed flat trajectory round? It is faster and flatter than anything the .454 Casull can do. Hmmmm. 

[SHOOTALL]

i consider the 30/30 in a different light than a straight walled case round . At one time i competed with hand guns in several bottle neck case cambering . as i got older i had less time and settled on revolvers and straight wall case chambers as the guns i would shoot for hunting and target shooting as they seem to take more skill in both shooting and getting close to the game .
now to gain the most from the 454 it seems that you need to use the extra case length to increase powder , now both the Ruger and Freedom arms gun have what some consider short cylinders limiting OAL. of round . there fore to get more powder in the case you must go to lighter bullets This is not some genius on my part it has been stated many times . now to answer GB i was saying flat shooting comparing the 45 Colt to the 454 or other similar rounds with similar payload ranges . if we consider other rounds there are many that will out preform each other no doubt .
I don't have any books with me that give the effective energy a 30/30 or a 454 puts on target at say 125 yards but it may be closer than we think , the 30/30 would be easier to shoot if set up with a scope maybe , but i'm still inclined to side with nothing beats size and weight .
i think the beauty of the 454 is the yardage it adds to an already great round the 45Colt , hope that's the way it came across !

[Graybeard]

My point perzactly. It's all relative. Even maxed out the Casull is a relatively low velocity round when compared to the almost universally accepted as slow .30-30. Thus range is limited. Yup it's faster than the old Colt but not by much IF both are operated at equal pressures and none if you seat bullets to the same identical OAL and run pressures the same. Tis all relative and one has to define the situation just as you did in that last post in order to make a comparison.

[SHOOTALL]

to be honest i shoot warm ( not hot ) colt 45 loads most of the time  hunting and 45 colt loads for target ! just every so often some one wants to see what a 454 feels like ! one maybe 2 rounds gives them the feel since they have no idea how to handle it ! and i don't load as heavy as the freedom arms guys ( not sure the Ruger would take the abuse with the 6 round cyl.

[45454]

Hi Shootall 
The cylinder of a Ruger BH,is not as strong as a say,F.A. cylinder.The F.A. cylinder is 5 shots.
I can tell you, the pressures are very high for the 454.
Although there's a safe limit,then there's the bursting at some point,when reached,if exceeded.
This is what we as shooters,reloaders,etc, are trying to avoid.At least, the responsible ones.
As long as we keep within the design limits,no hospital time,or worse-missing parts that we were born with.
I have really pushed the limits on my 1st RedHawk back in the 80's.Believe me,it was eye opening, and scary.(Was stolen in the 90's)
The cases stuck so bad,I had to bang the ejection rod about 4-5 times.Yes, the bullets were 320gr JDJ's.going about 1550/1600 FPS.
My reloading manual has since been put in red letters "DO NOT LOAD.DANGEROUS".The Ruger held together.The pressures were a distant second place to the 454.
My F.A.,has had reloads that I did by the Freedom Arms reloading sheet.Those are NOT "Ruger Only"! Not ANY Ruger.
Unless specifically reads "454 Casull".
Those pressures surpasses the Ruger by a wide margin, and consider those as dangerous/hazardous loads.
If say the RBH has a 40K limit, stay at or preferably, below.The 454 Casull operates in the 60K range.
To sum this up,A RBH ain't a 454 Casull.But,can operate in the 44 mag range.
The 454 has a lot of recoil in the full house loads.It almost makes a 44 mag recoil tame.
My Uberti 1873 Cattleman,is a BP frame design.The cylinder walls, are almost paper thin.It's a 14 K-absolutely no warm loads in this one.
It can handle 900 FPS loads easy.Some goes a bit faster.But staying within the limits.
The Vaquero I bought last year,the walls are a little thicker.So, it's roughly in the 16-18 K area.Could be wrong,though.But, should handle in the 1050/1100 FPS....thereabout.A 44 mag,it ain't either.It's a 45 Colt.
My RBH in 45 Colt,is also a joy to shoot. The load development with 265gr Bear Creeks, is a little stalled right now.
Enjoy your 45 Colt.Just don't want anyone to get hurt.It takes milliseconds to get hurt,and a longer time to heal.
You have a good weekend and a better week.

[Graybeard]

My reloading manual has since been put in red letters "DO NOT LOAD.DANGEROUS".The Ruger held together.The pressures were a distant second place to the 454.

I would tend to disagree with that comment. I'd say you EXCEEEDED normal .454 Casull pressures to get there. Back when I was shooting the Casull in the RB454 and FA83 my favorite load was the Lyman 452651 bullet that weight almost exactly 320 grains pushed by enough H110/W296 to reach 1550 fps. It wasn't a max load but was darn close to a book max load.

You were using a case with less capacity and pushing the same weight bullet to same velocity. That means you were running pressures even higher than I was in the Casull with it's larger case doing the same velocity. Danerous stuff there. It really is a testament to just how much safety the manufacturers are building into their guns to take care of folks who seem not able to take care of themselves.

[SHOOTALL]

my gun is a Ruger REDHAWK , still a 6 shot and most likely not as strong as a FA's gun to be sure but stronger than a blackhawk i would guess !
back in the day we loaded 44mag. to 1750 + for a 10in bbl SBH and one gr. more for the 45 colt in 2 7 1/2 in. blackhawks
one was a blue gun and the other SS the blue gun would get loose and the screws had to be tightened after 10-15 shots . the SS went alot longer the 44SBH would require tightening after every 10 rounds and replacement after a 60 round match . The 44 loads were in the manuals , the 45 loads were a tad over .
Ruger is in fact an over built gun ! After i messed up a S&W with the same 44 load and stopped shooting comp. i backed the loads down to sane levels , then to more sane levels as my hand would hurt after a few rounds .
to give an idea - we would shoot a 40 round match with sighters , we laid down in a creedmore position to shoot which puts the elbow on or close to the ground . Anyway after a match my elbow would be bruised , and it had the allowed 1 inch pad on it ! so the loads were strong .
now here is the funny part , when i did not get enough reloading finished for a match i would buy Federal's cheap 44 240 hp round . ( $9.00 a box ) ! guess what i won the N.C. state match and several local matches with the federal load .
the gun i messed up was a 5 in bbl ss custom DX from S&W , stupid !

[ghostsix]

The question cannot be answered without a lot of detail, some of which can only be acquired by testing.

[Ken ONeill]

Heavy C,
You were sounding a bit frustrated in asking your question several times. I suggest to you that such a question about whether a load is "hot " or up toward the upper limits of a cartridges capabilities can always best be answered by carefully studying half a dozen loading manuals, rather than fishing on the internet. I'm glad to see you say you've bought some. Since you say you are a new loader, I would further advise carefully working up loads after proper study of those manuals, and suggest that you regard the manuals' "Max. loads" as just that, not "what they were willing to put in print", as though there is some other secret "real" Maximum out there.

[Heavy C]

Yep, you're right.  I was new to the 45 Colt and was naive as to the various ways that question could have been interpreted.  As you saw I did begin investing in manuals and conversing with folks that have been hand loading almost as long as I've been alive.  I'm new to hand loading pistol cartridges, but not rifle so you can rest assured that I won't be maxing out any loads.  I don't mind hot loads from time to time, but I'd rather find a load that is pleasant to shoot and will have enough poop behind it to do the trick on small to medium sized game.

[ghostsix]

I loaded 100 rds. of .45 Colt 250 gr. Keith SWC`s behind 11.2 grs. of Unique  for AK. They were doing 1250 fps. I do not advise this. They kicked SAA the hammer back to half cock. The primers were a little flat. And I had lightened the action. Actually Bob Munden did it on his folks kitchen table in Ontario.
But ,on a Dall Sheep hunt a bear contested my right to the trail. My .375 H&H was at port arms. So I drew and fired the Colt. A slug just over his rt. eye decided the question.
10 grns. is plenty.

[ghostsix]

If your cylinder blows and peels back the top strap, your load is too hot.

[SHOOTALL]

you took the words out of my mouth !
Get a copy of Elmer Kieth's book he over loaded the Colt's and blew them up . So you can see the out come with out blowing up a good gun !