A Handi Hornady 450 N.E. 3 ¼ Rifle

[Tennessee.Traveler]

A Handi Hornady 450 N.E. 3 ¼ Rifle

I use Starline brass from Buffalo Arms for my 45-120.  Starline does not make 110 or 120 brass in .45 cal.  The stretched, made from Starline 2.6 brass is thinner and weaker.  I have approched the above velocity with no problems.  The brass is unsafe at that pressure.  The slight increase in powder volume will put working pressures at about 35,000 psi (Hornady working pressure), well within Handi limitations.

Hornady wants this cartridge to be used in the fine old English guns.  They don't have to incorporate English primers into the new design.  The brass, which won't be available until probably late in 2009, probably will use Federal primers.  By then 4-D Reamer, Clymer,  & Manson will have reamers for the Hornady 450 N.E. 3 ¼ – The “grandfather” of the classic 19th century DG cartridges.

Note, I do not have sworn statements attesting the validity of the above conclusions but the facts speak for themselves.

The Below data was a Table comparing the two cartridges.

Production history

[/b][/b]

Designer
John Rigby & Company
U.S. Military
Designed
1898
1863

Specifications

450 NE 3 ¼  Hornady
45-70 thru 120

Case type
Rimmed, straight
Rimmed, straight [1]

Bullet diameter
.458 in (11.6 mm)
.458 in (11.6 mm)

Neck diameter
.479 in (12.2 mm)
.480 in (12.2 mm)

Base diameter
.545 in (13.8 mm)
.505 in (12.8 mm)

Rim diameter
.624 in (15.8 mm)
.608 in (15.4 mm)

Rim thickness
.040 in (1.0 mm)
.070 in (1.8 mm)

Case length
3.25 in (83 mm)
2.105

Overall length
4.11 in (104 mm)
2.550 in (64.8 mm)

Rifling twist
1-20"
1-20"

Primer type
 Berdan #40
 Fed215

use English Reamer
.545 in (13.8 mm)
Ream cyl to size
use English Reamer
.624 in (15.8 mm)
Primer Pocket
Use English primers
.040 in (1.0 mm)
Ream cyl to length
use English Reamer
3.25

Ballistic performance

Bullet weight/type

Velocity
Energy
465 gr (30.1 g) Lead
2,150 ft/s (660 m/s)
4,770 ft·lbs (6,470 J)

480 gr (31 g) Lead
2,150 ft/s (660 m/s)
4,930 ft·lbs (6,680 J)

Source: "Cartridges of the World"

.458 Win Mag. Performance
At Trapdoor  Pressures

[skifastchad]

And the hornady 450ne3-1/4 ammo is only $118 a box.   

Sorry, but I think a lot of us would agree, if we had that kind of money to throw around, we wouldn't be shooting $200 guns.

[coyotejoe]

And the recoil in an eight pound rifle would be murderous! If one can afford an African big game hunt they probably can afford a serious rifle in which to shoot that round.

[stimpylu32]

While i like the concept , with the 45/90 , 45/110 and the 45/120 being so readily available I'm not sure their will be many Handi's done this way .

Stimpy

[Tennessee.Traveler]

I didn't think about that!  I haven't bought factory ammo in 35 years!  I was just hoping some of you guys would buy enough of that $3.50 ea. brass to drive the price down!   

[skifastchad]

The hornady brass will be about $2.80 each.  But... will they tell what kind of proprietary powder they use to get that kind of velocity out of 35,000 psi?

[quickdtoo]

I'll stick with the 45-120, Norma and Bell brass are less than $2, Bell brass is good for 60kpsi according to Mast technology. I've done some research on the 450NE, the 45-120 loaded to modern pressures with smokeless powder in a BC is no slouch. Case capacity of my fire formed brass is 124gr water compared to 119gr for the 450NE.

450 NE data isn't easy to find, but I did find some listed in an ADI .pdf as well as on the ADI website, they also list data for the 45-120 including several Hodgdon powders.

 http://ammoguide.com/cgi-bin/aicompare.cgi?sn=pMeOxUxcln&loadset=27&xxglbl=1

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=446

http://ammoguide.com/?catid=152

http://chasse-tir.ifrance.com/Tables%20Poudres%20ADI.pdf

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/equivalents.asp

http://www.thalesgroup.com.au/handloaders-guide/rifle.asp

As far as weight and recoil are concerned, a lead dead mule or MRS in the stock bolt hole and a leather slip-on recoil pad like the Galco go a long ways to tame recoil, I've pushed the 555gr Saeco #20 to near 1800fps in my 45-120, shoots great, recoil is noticable, but not painful.

The data that follows is only a prediciton using software, no powder had been burned....yet.
 
Here's a what the 400gr Barnes SSP at 2650fps might do, that's with a QuickLoad prediction with a case full of H4895 with pressure <50kpsi, still within the operating pressure of the 500S&W which is factory chambered on an SB2 frame with a larger case head than the 45-120, the 45-120 would have less case head thrust also due to considerably more case wall contact surface. Exterior ballistics calculated with Sierra Inf 5.1

Trajectory for Barnes .458 dia. (.45-120) 400 gr. SSP at 2650 Feet per Second
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.389 0.389 0.389 0.389 0.389
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1360 1360 1360 1360
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2650.0 6236.2 4.71 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2593.7 5973.9 4.61 -0.16 0.29 0.0 0.028607621
50 2538.1 5720.6 4.51 -0.64 1.76 0.0 0.057839190
75 2483.2 5475.7 4.41 -1.45 2.89 0.0 0.087713988
100 2428.9 5238.8 4.31 -2.62 3.67 0.0 0.118253213
125 2375.2 5010.0 4.22 -4.16 4.09 0.0 0.149478640
150 2322.3 4789.2 4.12 -6.08 4.11 0.0 0.181412460
175 2270.0 4576.0 4.03 -8.41 3.74 0.0 0.214077896
200 2218.4 4370.3 3.94 -11.15 2.94 0.0 0.247499515
225 2167.4 4171.7 3.85 -14.34 1.7 0.0 0.281703164
250 2117.1 3980.2 3.76 -17.99 0.0 0.0 0.316715766
275 2067.4 3795.7 3.67 -22.13 -2.19 0.0 0.352565171
300 2018.5 3618.0 3.58 -26.77 -4.88 0.0 0.389280153
325 1970.2 3447.0 3.50 -31.95 -8.11 0.0 0.426890494
350 1922.6 3282.6 3.41 -37.68 -11.89 0.0 0.465427066
375 1875.8 3124.5 3.33 -44.01 -16.27 0.0 0.504921818
400 1829.7 2972.8 3.25 -50.95 -21.26 0.0 0.545407634
425 1784.3 2827.3 3.17 -58.54 -26.9 0.0 0.586918117
450 1739.8 2688.0 3.09 -66.81 -33.22 0.0 0.629487359
475 1696.1 2554.7 3.01 -75.8 -40.26 0.0 0.673149783
500 1653.3 2427.5 2.94 -85.55 -48.06 0.0 0.717939960

Here's another, 2775fps is based on a Quick Load prediction for a max load of H4350 with a 102% fill and 98% burn, about as good as it gets at a max pressure of <50kpsi which is right at 500 S&W operating pressure. The velocity is within the operating parameters of the 350gr X bullet in a 458 Lott according to the Barnes #3, in fact in the 460 Whby, it's loaded to 3000fps. 

Trajectory for Barnes .458 dia. 350 gr. X  at 2775 Feet per Second <50kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.402 0.402 0.402 0.402 0.402
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1960 1960 1960 1960
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2775.0 5983.6 4.31 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2718.9 5744.1 4.23 -0.14 0.13 0.0 0.027304499
50 2663.5 5512.6 4.14 -0.58 1.48 0.0 0.055174416
75 2608.9 5288.6 4.05 -1.32 2.51 0.0 0.083626047
100 2554.9 5071.9 3.97 -2.38 3.23 0.0 0.112676545
125 2501.5 4862.4 3.89 -3.78 3.61 0.0 0.142343627
150 2448.8 4659.4 3.81 -5.52 3.64 0.0 0.172646633
175 2396.6 4463.1 3.72 -7.63 3.32 0.0 0.203605887
200 2345.1 4273.3 3.64 -10.11 2.61 0.0 0.235241949
225 2294.3 4089.9 3.57 -12.98 1.51 0.0 0.267576101
250 2244.0 3912.7 3.49 -16.27 0.0 0.0 0.300630774
275 2194.3 3741.5 3.41 -20.0 -1.94 0.0 0.334429621
300 2145.3 3576.1 3.33 -24.17 -4.34 0.0 0.368997363
325 2096.9 3416.4 3.26 -28.81 -7.21 0.0 0.404359618
350 2049.1 3262.5 3.18 -33.95 -10.57 0.0 0.440542825
375 2001.9 3114.1 3.11 -39.61 -14.44 0.0 0.477574287
400 1955.4 2971.1 3.04 -45.8 -18.86 0.0 0.515482255
425 1909.6 2833.5 2.97 -52.57 -23.85 0.0 0.554295978
450 1864.4 2701.1 2.90 -59.93 -29.44 0.0 0.594045651
475 1820.0 2573.8 2.83 -67.92 -35.65 0.0 0.634762272
500 1776.3 2451.7 2.76 -76.56 -42.51 0.0 0.676477433

And a couple <40kpsi loads with Remington bullets that I calculated for a membere on another forum...

Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-120, Rem 405 gr. SP at 2250fps <40kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281 0.281
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1064 1064 1064 1064
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2250.0 4551.8 4.05 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2179.0 4269.3 3.92 -0.22 0.53 0.0 0.033871809
50 2109.3 4000.5 3.79 -0.9 2.1 0.0 0.068854858
75 2040.9 3745.2 3.67 -2.06 3.18 0.0 0.105002435
100 1973.8 3503.0 3.55 -3.75 3.74 0.0 0.142370331
125 1908.1 3273.6 3.43 -5.99 3.74 0.0 0.181017117
150 1843.7 3056.5 3.32 -8.83 3.15 0.0 0.221004178
175 1780.9 2851.6 3.20 -12.31 1.92 0.0 0.262395193
200 1719.5 2658.6 3.09 -16.48 0.0 0.0 0.305255337
225 1659.9 2477.3 2.98 -21.38 -2.65 0.0 0.349650600
250 1601.9 2307.4 2.88 -27.07 -6.09 0.0 0.395647122
275 1545.8 2148.5 2.78 -33.6 -10.38 0.0 0.443310948
300 1491.7 2000.6 2.68 -41.05 -15.58 0.0 0.492706043
325 1439.6 1863.4 2.59 -49.47 -21.75 0.0 0.543892401
350 1389.7 1736.5 2.50 -58.94 -28.98 0.0 0.596924399


Trajectory for Remington .458 dia. 45-70 Govt,Rem 300 gr. JHP at 2700fps <40kpsi
At an Elevation Angle of: 0 degrees
Ballistic Coefficients of: 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213 0.213
Velocity Boundaries (Feet per Second) of: 1448 1448 1448 1448
Wind Direction is: 0.0 o'clock and a Wind Velocity of: 0.0 Miles per hour
Wind Components are (Miles per Hour): DownRange: 0.0 Cross Range: 0.0 Vertical: 0.0
Altitude: 500 Feet with a Standard Atmospheric Model.
Temperature: 59 F
Data Printed in English Units
Range Velocity Energy Momentum Drop Bullet Path Wind Drift Time of Flight
(Yards) (Ft/Sec) (Ft/Lbs) (Lb-Sec) (inches) (inches) (inches) (Seconds)
0 2700.0 4855.3 3.60 0.0 -1.5 0.0 0.000000000
25 2596.5 4490.3 3.46 -0.15 0.25 0.0 0.028326239
50 2495.4 4147.5 3.32 -0.63 1.67 0.0 0.057790453
75 2396.5 3825.1 3.19 -1.45 2.75 0.0 0.088459485
100 2299.9 3522.8 3.06 -2.65 3.45 0.0 0.120406196
125 2205.4 3239.3 2.94 -4.27 3.74 0.0 0.153708380
150 2113.1 2973.8 2.81 -6.33 3.58 0.0 0.188451395
175 2023.0 2725.7 2.69 -8.88 2.93 0.0 0.224727059
200 1935.2 2494.3 2.58 -11.95 1.76 0.0 0.262633025
225 1849.9 2279.1 2.46 -15.61 0.0 0.0 0.302273346
250 1767.0 2079.6 2.35 -19.91 -2.39 0.0 0.343757854
275 1687.0 1895.4 2.25 -24.89 -5.48 0.0 0.387200039
300 1609.8 1726.1 2.14 -30.65 -9.33 0.0 0.432714797
325 1535.9 1571.1 2.05 -37.24 -14.02 0.0 0.480417001
350 1465.3 1430.1 1.95 -44.75 -19.63 0.0 0.530417629
375 1398.5 1302.7 1.86 -53.28 -26.26 0.0 0.582817790
400 1335.7 1188.3 1.78 -62.92 -33.99 0.0 0.637703853

[PHATINJUN]

four thousand nine hundred thirty ft.lb. that heap big tip over medicine. Kurt

[Tennessee.Traveler]

My comparison data came from wickipedia.  The diameter at the base was slightly larger than 45-120.  Quick's data showing the 45-120 with more water volume confirms my statement of the thin brass in the 45-120  that Buffalo Arms sells as "Starline Brass"

It  is actually Starline 2.6 brass that has been stretched to a length of 3.25" by someone besides Starline at the request of Buffalo Arms.  I don't have any Hornady brass to use for comparison but I would bet it is considerably heavier because it is a lot thicker and the volume inside is less than the 45-120.

Starline told me that they did not make 3.25 brass but they would be happy to do it for me if I ordered a minimum of 25,000 pcs. and paid a $500.00 setup fee.

Actually I said that I had approached those velocities .  I would not shoot the same piece of brass twice.

To me, that brass at $1.56 is more expensive than $2.80 brass that I could safely reload 4 or 5 times.

Besides all that, who said, "Daydreams had to be economically feasible?

[quickdtoo]

Bell 45 Basic brass has thicker walls at the case head than Starline 500S&W brass, and like I said, it's tested to 60kpsi, dunno about Norma, don't have any to section. Track is out of it now, they're accepting orders, but until Jamison(who bought the machinery from Mast) runs some more, they won't get any, it was $1.96 each.

Grafs had 450NE-3¼" brass if ya wanta go ahead with it, but I don't think there's any serious advantage to it other than something different and brass costs even more, they both have the shock and awe factor!! At equal pressures, the 450NE would have more case head thrust due to the larger .540" case head.

Tim

http://trackofthewolf.com/(S(1imbzrbtdtkcrf55go1expio))/categories/partDetail.aspx?catId=2&subId=26&styleId=75&partNum=CASE-45-120

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/889

http://www.grafs.com/metallic/855

[PeterCartwright]

Well, Tim, I've just found yet another place to display my ignorance.  What is a "lead dead mule"?

PC

[Tennessee.Traveler]

Tim,

Last summer I seem to remember you saying you were having a brass triggergaurd made but, the guy took off on a long hunting trip, is that the brass TG on the BC below?

Dick

[quickdtoo]

PC, a dead mule is a brand name for a recoil reducing device, a lead weight in the stock performs the same function without the springs.

http://www.gunsandammomag.com/new_products/dmule_031407/


Yes it is Dick, I won't be buying any more from him tho, Tally is working on a replacement metal trigger guard and spacer right now.

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,138087.msg1098537958.html#msg1098537958

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,125031.90.html