Hodgdon's Lil-Gun powder, my rant!

[coyotejoe]

I've previously posted my experience with this powder, but to summarize:  I've tried Hodgdon's listed loads for Lil-Gun in .22 K Hornet, .30 M1 Carbine, .357 Magnum and .357 Rem Maximum and in all four cases I've had extreme shot to shot variations in pressure and velocity. I emailed Hodgdon about this and got a phone call from Dave Campbell requesting I send him 20 rounds of my .357 mag load for testing. I also sent him 20 rounds of K Hornet since that had shown the most extreme velocity spread.
 About a week later he called back to say he had found the problems exactly as I described, he fired five rounds of each in the pressure barrel. All five .357s had pierced primers but he said that was because I used W-W small pistol primers, not magnum primers.
BS!!! The load was 17.0 gr. Lil-Gun under a W-W 158 JHP. Hodgon's website lists a starting load of 16 grains at 24,100 CUP and a max load of 18 gr at 25,800 CUP so the 17 grain load should be running right around 25,000 CUP by Hodgdon's data. He didn't say what the pressure had been but there is surely no reason for pierced primers at 25,000.
In the .22 K Hornet I had loaded 12.0 grains Lil-Gun under a 50 grain bullet with CCI small rifle primers. That is Hodgdon's listed starting load which is supposed to produce 34,300 CUP. He confirmed that in his pressure barrel five shots varied from 43,000 CUP to 56,800 CUP, but he blamed than on the Remington brass and on the fact that my ammo chambered very tightly in his barrel.
BS!!!  I'll concede I did make a mistake there, I used cases which had been fired in my rifle and only neck sized, so no surprise that they didn't fit his chamber very well, but the fact that he was able to chamber it at all indicates my chamber is not all that different. He claimed Remington brass is heavier than other brands and so pressures for any given load is higher in Remington brass.
BS!!! Perhaps the average pressure may indeed run a bit higher in heavier brass but how does that explain the variation from 43,000 to 56,800 CUP???  And I repeat, this was with their listed starting load for the K Hornet, many people run that in standard hornets!
The bottom line is that his testing confirmed every thing I had told him, he experienced exactly the same problems. But his explanation was that it was the brass, or the primers, or my chamber, or the phase of the moon, or the Doppler effect or absolutely anything but Hodgdon's stinkin powder! Never mind the fact that using the same brass, same primers, same bullets in the same chambers, I've never experience any problems of any sort when using any powder but Lil-GUN!
  He did help me reach a decision. I had already made up my mind that I would never again mess with Lil-Gun but after getting that load of crap from Dave Campbell I've decided I will never again mess with ANY Hodgdon powder. True, I don't know I'd have gotten a more honest answer from any other powder maker but I do know I got a load of crap from Hodgdon.

[BIG Dog454]

 +1.    I had similar problems with little gun.  Thought that maybe I had gotten some of the early batch; I had heard that the early batch had problems but I found another powder to do what I wanted so no more Lil-gun for me.

[stimpylu32]

Having never used Little-gun i can not add much , other than the fact that i just love small .22 cal CF rounds , it all started with my Handi in 218 Bee and now with my 224 GNR wildcat coming anytime ( maybe today  ) and my next project being another small .22 CF Wildcat .

I'm always looking at diffrent powders to ring the most out of my Handloads . That being said i do not see Little-gun being one of the ones that i would chose , granted some have had great luck with it but for the uncharted waters that i am about to swim in , its just too unstable for me . 

stimpy

[LaOtto222]

I did not mean to get you going with my post. I was just wondering why so much variation between loading data from "reliable" sources. There are a lot of folks that seem to get excellent results from Lil'Gun i.e. extreme velocities (some times as much as 300fps with every thing being the same, except the powder) and very good accuracy. I do not know how you can get good accuracy from a powder that seems is so erratic with pressure. My little experimentation so far would indicate varying pressures, but I have no idea really what they are and if they are in fact are varying. I can get two shots pretty close and the third one goes off 3". The primers look slightly different from shot to shot too. Is it varying pressures, the gun or is it just me. But there are a lot of people that swear they get very high velocity and top accuracy from Lil'Gun. Some claim that they use hand gun primers, some say small rifle primers are the way to go. I personally switched just the primer form a Rem 1 1/2 to WSPM and the pressure shot way up. I know that the magnum primers are hotter, but that much more than say a small rifle primer? I know some folks are using small rifle BR primer satisfactorily (so they claim). I know there are variables between guns, but WOW there sure is a lot of differing data and claims out there. I am pretty clear on how you stand, but still would like to get things in discussion mode. I am about to give up on Lil'Gun and start working with WW 296 again, but those claimed velocities from so many different sources are hard to turn your back on. Even the "big" boys that are not affiliated (I think) with Hodgdon claim high velocities within safe pressure levels. Sierra is an exception, but they were using Fed 205M primers. Their loads were way below everyone else's by a lot.

[coyotejoe]

I too was attracted to Lil Gun by the high published velocities, better than any other powder in small capacity cases. I started with the .22 K Hornet and got cratered primers, not always but often, with the recommended starting load. Indeed the average velocity was high, but with a shot to shot variation of over 300 fps. Dave Campbell admitted a variation of 99 fps but he only fired five. I at first thought primers, I was using some old Remington small rifle primers. I tried small pistol and went from cratered primers to pierced primers. I tried some CCI small rifle primers and CCI magnum small pistol with no better success.
  I thought perhaps it was just that darn rifle, an old Savage M-219 break open, so I tried Lil Gun in my M1 carbine. Same result, high average velocity but with extreme variations and lousy groups.  I then tried it in my H&R handi .357 mag and again after rechambering to .357 Maximum. Same unpredictable results, pressure spikes and poor accuracy.
  I find it interesting that Hodgdon's Dave Campbell admitted to the same problems with my ammo in his pressure barrel, he just made up a list of BS excuses for it.

[dw06]

My experience using Lil'gun in the 22 hornet and 22k hornet is much the same as coyotejoe. Very unpredictable with pressure spikes and sticky brass.And that was with mid range loads.I thought it may have been a bad lot,but another can from new lot did same.I gave up and went back to ww296.

[Lloyd Smale]

ive got about 9 more lbs of it to burn up and wont buy more either. It will join bluedot as a banned powder on my bench. they both just do to many strange things when pushed to higher pressures. I have to say though that one place it really seems to shine is in the 32 mag with heavier bullets

[stimpylu32]

Like i said , some have had great luck with Little gun , i on the other hand just love IMR4227 , it works flawlessly in my 218 as well as my 25/06 ( which surprised me ) so betwen that and H110/Win296 i see no reason to take the chance .

stimpy

[LaOtto222]

I have experimented with Lil'Gun in my 221 Fire Balls and 40 grain bullets. I did not get the accuracy I was looking for and have now been working with IMR 4198 and Reloader 7. Again, I read reports of excellent accuracy and velocity out of the 221 FB, not as dramatic as the 22 Hornet, but better than any other powder with 40 grain bullets. I have not experienced pierced primers with either case, mostly disappointing accuracy.

[coyotejoe]

By the way LaOtto, don't worry that you "got me going" with your post, I've been on this roll since I got my K Hornet and a can of Lill Gun late last spring. I just finally got a response from Hodgdon and that got me seeing red!  But I'm better now, really I am.

[Jerry Lester]

I don't know what I'm doing different, but I'm in love with it. I did have fairly erratic velocity spreads with standard primers in the 357 magnum loads, but as soon as I switched back to CCI 550's it gave very tight spreads, and higher velocity than any other powder with medium to heavy bullets. Accuracy has been from good to extremely good in a wide array of load combinations in several guns.

In the 22 Hornet with bullets from 45g to 55g, it's nothing short of magic in my experience. Of course I take great pains with my Hornet brass preparation which I'm sure contributes to consistency in the Hornets. I also don't care for light bullets in the Hornet, and the bulk of my loads are with 50g bullets. I know from how this powder has acted when pressures are too low that it'd likely give bad results with any light weight bullets. I also use only CCI BR-4 primers which may play into my luck with this powder.

For what it's worth, my charges are kept extremely consistent, and I use a crimp on every load. I lightly crimp my Hornets with a LEE factory die, and I put a fairly heavy crimp on my Lil' Gun 357 loads.

[tn_junk]

I have had real good luck with Lil' Gun in my .357 MAX, but have seen exactly the same problems you are describing in my .357 Mag.
Not sure, but think it may have something to do with my loads. The .357 MAX is a 200 grain Hornady ahead of a near max load of Lil' Gun, while the magnum is kind of a middle of the road 180 grain HP load.
I am loading some 460 S&W Mag and 454 Casull with Lil' Gun and am real curious how it will work.

alan

[Varmint Hunter]

I have experimented with Lil'Gun in my 221 Fire Balls and 40 grain bullets. I did not get the accuracy I was looking for and have now been working with IMR 4198 and Reloader 7. Again, I read reports of excellent accuracy and velocity out of the 221 FB, not as dramatic as the 22 Hornet, but better than any other powder with 40 grain bullets. I have not experienced pierced primers with either case, mostly disappointing accuracy.

My experience with Lil'Gun in the 221FB has been different. For many years I was shooting a max charge of RE-7 under a 40gr Nosler B-Tip @ 3,200 ft/sec. In my Hart barreled Rem #7 I would regularly get .5moa groups @ 200 yds.  I eventually switched to a lighter charge of Lil'Gun and get 3,600 ft/sec with the same accuracy. I have killed PA groundhogs out to 335 yds with this load.

I do not see any indication of excess pressure and have reloaded the cases many times. LIL'Gun has worked quite well in my .221FB rifle, haven't tried it in anything else.

[DAG460]

My experience with Lil-Gun has been very poor in my .45 Colt Ruger blackhawk.  My load was middle of the road for Ruger revolver in the loading manual.  265 gr. GC bullet.  All cases prepped the same and heavy crimp.  Over the chronograph velocity was all over the place and had to quit when I got a bullet stuck in the barrel.  Primer fired but not the powder.  Pushed the bullet back out of the barrel and tried about ten more rounds and stuck another bullet in the barrel.  That was it.  I will not us this powder again.  I have over 40 years experience at reloading in the shooting sports and have never experienced this kind radical performance in a powder.  I don't usually give up this easily with a powder but this one scares me.

DAG

[coyotejoe]

Indeed! Working within listed data I might have one round with such low pressure as to smudge the case walls and even leave unburned powder granules melted onto the case walls while the next shot with the identical load may indicate severe over pressure.
I too started handloading about 1965 and have been an avid shooter and reloader ever since. I have never seen such erratic behavior with any powder before those first rounds of Lil Gun and I have never seen anything BUT erratic behaviour with Lil Gun. I know lots of people love the stuff but this one can I got is totally unlovable and how is a lover of that powder to know their next can won't be like mine? I agree, it is scary stuff. And most scary to me is the fact that Hodgdon's testing confirmed the erratic results but they just wanted to make up lame excuses for it.