Trying to understand loading close to the lands?

[hotburn76]

Been trying to understand the term touching lands, and just off the lands and other terms.  I have a 204 Handie and this is a 40 grain Vmax loaded at different lengths.

This is loaded at 2.395 like Mitch has is some of his post.  These are land marks right?  This is way to deep correct?




This is 2.350 and the marks are getting smaller




This is 2.325 really small now




This is where the marks are off now, this is 2.310


So is my load spot for a 40 grain VMax somewhere between 2.310 and 2.325?  This is done with RCBS calipers and is to the red tip.  Am I seeing this right or doing it all wrong.  I though that I had a long throat, but realized that was a bullet with out a ballistic tip and the Berger is more pointy then the VMax I think.  Any pointers on if I am looking at this right?

[torpedoman]

You seem to have a good grasp on it now load up 10 of each length changing nothing but the length and fire them for group off a real good rest some guns like engraved some just touching and some just off the rifling the trick is to find what yours likes.

[hotburn76]

The top two are not too long?  One thing I did not mention in the first post and also did not get a pic of was the first thing I did was seat the bullet just enough to get it to stay in the case, it was 2.450 long and then when I smoked it and put in the gun it closed kinda stiff and when I took it out it had the marks just like the first one and was 2.415 long, not sure if 2.415 is my true max length, and if it is, what is causing the marks in the pics?

[LaOtto222]

Did you have just one mark like that or did you have 6, evenly spaced marks around the bullet?

[hotburn76]

On the first two I had the marks even and the entire way around.  On the third pic it was maybe four out of six marks. 

Also I have read about splitting a case on the neck with a slit in it and then putting a bullet in it so the bullet slides in and out with not a bunch of force.  Did this four times to get a repeatable number and three times came up with 2.395 and once with 2.396 so I think that is a good number.  Now when I do the trick with the cleaning rod and two set stops and hold a bullet in with a pencil until I feel it just touch the lands or something I get a measurement of 2.43 so that is way longer then the smoke stuff and the bullet loose in the case trick.

Now one thing you may answer or quick and the guys could too, is something I heard from a guy at work.  He said the rifling's do not just start out with the full rifling diameter, that they have a taper to them.  That the smoke soot could be getting rubbed off by the taper and not actually fully engaging the rifling fully until the 2.40 to 2.43 mark.  One observation is that the suit is rubbed off, but the bullet is not scratched shiny.  What do you guys think, sounds good to a novice like me, but is he right about the taper thing?
 

[McLernon]

Looking at the marks, they seem to extend nearly to the case. If so I doubt they are rifling marks. Also they look too wide for rifling marks.
JMO

Mc

[LaOtto222]

I do not have a 204 so I have no idea how H & R do their rifling or how much throat they have. I do know that some rifles have a gradual throat to the rifling, cutting a taper in the rifling as you describe. But there are some that are fairly abrupt, in other words they are almost vertical or a sharp angle to the bore where the rifling starts. I have used the split case trick and seem to get good readings with it. Just make sure it has enough friction to hold the bullet in place when you withdraw the case from the chamber. It sounds like you are trying to get a new load developed for your rifle and want to start at the lands? You may consider starting at a standard OAL (some where around 2.250" which may be in the neighborhood of .08" or .09" away from the lands) and then working your way to the lands after you get a good load developed at standard OAL. I believe there are more rifles that shoot better off the lands (some where around .04" to .02"away from the lands) than shoot better kissing the lands or into the lands. I use a Stoney Point gauge to measure my OAL for every thing I can. When I can't, I use the split neck method and have found it to work pretty well, if you have sufficient neck tension this way I feel it fairly accurate. Be aware that when you start getting very close and into the lands your pressures will go up. Good Luck and Good Shooting

[quickdtoo]

If you look in the FAQs under the Handloading section, you'll find a OAL tool that Fred M makes, it's real easy to check with it. The link in the FAQs is dead right now cuz Matt's transferring the rest of the data base from the old GBO server, but here's a direct link...

http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,112672.msg1098350243.html#msg1098350243

For the 40gr Vmax, COL on my 204 Ruger Handi is 2.390" to the lands which due to the boat tail is too little seating depth, so I load them to 2.289" with a near max load of BL-C2 and get less than 1" groups with it.

Tim