Remington #5 Military in 7mm

[Turkeyfeather]

I have a question for the Rolling Block shooters. I have a chance to buy an original #5 military in 7mm for $390.00. The metal is in good shape without rust. The barrel is clean and has sharp rifling. The wood is not cracked or broken but needs refinishing. I am interested in buying a rolling block or sharps design single shot rifle. I handload 7mm Mauser rounds now so I have the dies, brass, and bullets to work with but the question is should I invest this amount of money for the old rifle when I should be saving for a current production item. The base question is whether the old Remington Rolling Blocks are strong, safe, and a good investment.  Let me know what you think

 

[StrawHat]

I am sure others will give their opinions but here is mine.

I happen to like both old and new.  I buy the old ones when I can, if they are available.  If not, a new one can fill the need.

You have the opportunity to buy one of the old ones.  While I am not a fan of 7mm RB's, there is nothing wrong with them, I just like bigger bores.

Also, if you get the 7mm and find it doesn't work out for you there are a couple of options.  Resale or rebarrel are two that quickly come to mind.

I know several fellows who have old rifles with new barrels and are quite pleased with them.

Good luck.

[John Traveler]

The Remington #5 7mm rolling block rifle action is the basis for many fine large caliber black powder cartridge rifle conversions.

It is the action of choice for rebarrelling to .45-70, .38-55, .45-90, etc.  Check out the BPCR matches sometime.  Shooters that can not afford or do not want a new Shilo, Pedersoli, or Lone Star custom BPCR rifle look to a rebarreled and restocked Remington #5.  I have owned several and shot many thousands of rounds through them in the last several years.

One word of caution before loading and shooting that 7mm RRB.  Only mild factory equivalent loads should be used, and be aware that the rifle was built before SAAMI chamber dimensions were standardized in the 1920's.  You will likely find that factory or standard resized 7x57 cases will give slightly long headspace.  This can be corrected by partial sizing cases and inspecting carefully for incipient head separations.

[MSP Ret]

That is a great deal oin that rifle. I have one and shoot it and it shoots great. I got it from a great member here, Marv, aka "Datil". I load ammo for it with lead bullets and hope to take a deer with it in Maine next year, no luck this past fall. If you don't want that deal let me know. You will not lose money on it at that price!!!....<><....

[DonT]

I belong to the cast bullet association and the newsletter (mag) I got just a few days ago points out that contrary to popular belief these rifles are chambered in 7mm but it is NOT 7X57 (mauser).   The can create some problems getting them to shoot well.  I had a buddy with one and he could not get that gun to shoot 100 yard groups under 6-8 inches.  When we looked at the brass it looked funny, almost like it had a second step in the neck.

The price you could buy it for is excellent and if it were in good condition and the wood is as nice as you described the rest of the rifle I would pick it up and fool with it then keep it for a later sale or trade as it is only going to go up in value.

As said keep the loads down on it.

Now if you are looking at something for target shooting and primarily want accuracy then I would look at one of the 1874 Pedersoli Sharps.  Get set triggers and tang site, 32 inch barrel is really nice also.  I just picked one up in 45-70 and I am amazed.  First load I tossed together I am getting 1.5 to 2" groups at 100 yds.  That is with cast bullets and in 20 degree weather and overcast.  These guns can shoot.  Got a buddy that has one of the older Pedersoli  rolling blocks with a medium wt. barrel in 30-30 and that gun will also perform very very well.


Good luck with your search.

[Brithunter]

Errr I am confused as if I recall correctly the Remingtons were made for the Mexican military who adopted the rifle in 1897 which of course was four years after the introduction of the 7mm Mauser cartridge. All the information I have found indicates that the Remington #5 was originally made for the Mexican Military and it was after this contract was fullfilled that Remington offered the #5 Rolling Block in a sporting format and it was in 7mm Mauser.

However it seems that if your Remington #5 shows strange marks on fired cases perhaps someone has messed with the chamber at some point in it's life. When these rifles were made Remington had an excellent name for quality and I doubt it would have been shipped as the marks would have been noticed during proof firing at the factory.

[DonT]

See if you can find someone that belongs to the Cast Bullet association and get a copy of the article in the most recent news letter.  It is pretty detailed and complete and outlines the exact difference in the cartridges and what needs to be done to get around the issue.

I thought the same as you when my buddy had his then after reading the article realized this was the issue.

DonT

[woodchukhntr]

There was an article in an ancient Gun Digest titled "20 Cases", if I remember correctly.  The author wrote about his adventures with a 7 mm RB and a box of 20 cases.  I don't remember how many times he reused the cases, but it was significant.  I was very impressed and always wanted one for myself.  I'll try to dig it up and maybe I can scan it and make it available to all.

[Antietamgw]

There is a difference between the 7X57 SAAMI spec cartridge that our current brass and factory ammunition adheres to and the chambering you will find in the Rolling Block and the early military bolt actions. It's close but not the same. If you check the headspace on even a virtually unused military chamber with a SAAMI spec headspace guage you will probably find that it will close or lock up on a Field guage, which indicates excessive headspace. Likely nothing wrong with the rifle, just that there are  differences in the chambers with the military chamber being slightly longer from base to shoulder. It's slightly larger at the base as well. You will  find case life to be short if factory ammunition is fired in the military chamber and then resized back to SAAMI specs are fired again. In a few military beaters, I've set the barrel back a thread and chambered to the SAAMI spec. chamber. Works well and uses factory loads. For a Rolling Block and a '95 that I didn't want to change I just started by fireforming the brass to the chamber. Pretty easy if you are a reloader. Funny looking fired brass could be that the chamber is just large and the brass blew out to fit it or it could mean that there is a problem or that it has been altered somewhere along the line. Funny looking brass is not something to fool with, especially in a Rolling Block. You don't want a face full of gas! These are fine rifles but are best used with brass that fits them and not milsurp or factory loads. The SAAMI specs came out long after the 7X57 was used as a military chambering.

[Brithunter]

So the problem is SAAMI not being able to read specs and adopt specs which have been around long before some newbie decides they know better! Typical. Funny thing is that I don't notice problems with my 1897 DWM Sporting Mauser in 7mm Mauser cases come out fine and have even fired some modern 7mm Mauser ammo through it or them as I used to have three of them. Long rifle, carbine and Plezier sporting rifle, sold all but he Plezier.

[Rangr44]

Just two points, Brithunter - er, Turkeyfeather   

That rifle should have the 1902 Remington #1 Smokeless action, and so should have been made with the proper, smaller diameter firing pin tip - and shouldn't need bushing unless the breech face is corroded, etc.

Those older guns have softer steels, and will wear appreciably with repeated jacketed bullet shooting. It might behoove you to shoot cast bullets, or rebarrel with a new steel barrel if you want to do jacketed.

BTW - DeHass mentioned that the easiest way to make an excess-headspace 7x57 RB rifle safe/shootable is to simply recess the breech face of the barrel so it will chamber the 7x57R cartridge - since those rifles were also made in that caliber.

[Brithunter]

Hmmm I don't actually have any Remingtons, rolling blocks or otherwise, my old 7x57 is a DWM Mauser M93 made in about 1897 for the Boers. I also have about 300 or so original German 173/175 grain RN FMJ bullets which a kind person sent me that they pulled from ammunition (DM96 headstamp) that the cases had spilt on in storage so were unsafe to use. However I have not loaded any of them yet due to not being able to repair the corroded fore sight on the rilfe. The bead has rusted off the blade which is only 0.025" thick and so far i have found noone who is willing to undertake making a replacement. Oh I should point out that it's not a normal blade as the foresight is windage adjustable so it looks like I will have to attempt to make a replacment myself so the project is on the back burner. This is a photo from a South African sight of the fore sight on a repro Plezier rifle:-



  I did try contacting them but not no reply. This is mine:-

[Rangr44]

 AW, I meant "Turkeyfeather", Brithunter !  I guess I had a senior moment - Sorry.   

[Brithunter]

That's OK it just got me a little confused, but that doesn't take much!

[Antietamgw]

Brithunter,
I like that front sight and kind of thought of doing kind of the same thing with a globe sight on a Ballard that I like to walk around the farm with. Globe sight are fine on target rifles but sometimes you need a little more light on a rifle used in the field. I imagine the purpose for the wings on your sight was to protect it. Thanks for posting the pic.

[Brithunter]

yes I guess that's what the wings are for plus possible providing protection from the strong sunlight found in Africa. Although this is not the best photo this does show the protected fore sight on a British Cape light rifle in 303:-



It's the one on the right of course the left foresight is Ivory, yep the whole blade is Ivory and in fact is a replacement one I made as the original was snapped off, this is on a Swinburn's patent Martini sporting rifle in 577/450 a rifle which I no longer have.