Over Worked Brass and Case Head Separation

[rezz]

I recently posted a problem here:  http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,140531.0.html

I have a problem with the 22-250 and need some help.
It is apparently a head space issue and the Handi does want to latch with some the reloads. Even the once fired brass that hasn't been resized does the same.
There is a visible gap at the breech when latched shut. I have tried adjusting my Lee FL die down, up, and every other which way but cannot seem to get rid of all the gap though I have seen some reductions. What can I do to push the shoulder back a little more if my die will not adjust it out?

Honing the shellholder helped reduce the gap between breech face and barrel but didn't eliminate it altogether.
Full length resizing with the Lee Classic press didn't fix the problem either until I hit on a technique that worked.
It seems the trick is to give the press a little pop for the last 1/4" of the handle stroke. This 'pop' apparently pushes the shoulder back enough to ensure complete lockup with the Handi and no gap at all.  I don't know why this is necessary, but at least it works. The bad news is that it looks like this 22-250 will require FL resizing every time unless I can figure out how to bump the shoulder back another way.
I have been using a Lee Hand Press for depriming and neck sizing and this is not doing enough with the shoulder to ensure a good case to chamber fit. Will now try neck sizing with the Lee Classic and FL die and see how that does.

Well, when I shot these I had 2 case head separations. I believe the cause was overworked brass. This batch of cases had been reloaded 3 times and showed no signs of problems.
Luckily, no damage was done and I have retired the entire batch of brass. At least I now know exactly what to look for as a warning, the bright ring on the outside and the ridge on the inside because there were a couple of other that about let go too.

Does anyone else have problems with 22-250s not chambering after the first firing??

My guess is that I pushed the shoulder back too far in order to get the case to chamber well. Other than that I am at a loss as to how to proceed in reloading another batch.
At least the once fired cases will shoot ok, but after that I will be back at the point where the cases don't chamber well and I will need to figure out how to adjust my Lee Classic press and Lee FL dies to get rid of the problem. I have pretty much tried every combination of die adjustments and am not much in the mood for further experimentation with case separation.

How the devil can I get these cases to chamber without over working/screwing up the brass again?

[Catfish]

I`m wandering if you don`t have an over sized chamber. I had a custom .270 years ago that had a big chamber and you would get head separation after just afew loadings. It was due to over working the brass just above the case head. I went to neck size dies and never had a problem after that. Mic some new or at least reloaded ammo up and down the case then mic some fired cases and see how much you are working your cases.

[stimpylu32]

Rezz

This may be off some but check your new brass and then check some of your sized cases , this may be a die problem not a chamber problem . also what is your brass OL , just because your rifle has a long throat does not mean that it likes long brass .

Let me check and see if i have another set of 22-250 dies ( i think i have an extra set or 2 ) , if i do I'll send them to you to try and see if that will fix the problem .

stimpy

[rezz]

Thanks Stimpy
I think I just screwed up and pushed the shoulder back too far in my attempt to get the handi to latch up tight as with a new cartridge.

I am trimming to 1.902 and COL is 2.40   I shot this length before with no problems and the same load: 35.5 gr Varget and 50 gr Vmax, 36.5 Varget and 55 Vmax.
The following are measurements I took from new, fired, and resized cases.

Fired
Unfired/New
Resized

base   web    mid                       shoulder
.461  .463    .442                      .420
.461  .458    .433                      .412
.463  .462    .442                      .416
xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>      .262 .255 .252
                                                 >>>
                                                        xxoooooo
                                                        xxoooooo
                                                >>>
0000000000oxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx>

Hopefully that is recognizable.

[snapcrackpop]

Does anyone else have problems with 22-250s not chambering after the first firing??

yes
Page 3 in this Handloading forum
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,139116.0.html

Handi centerfire forum
http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php/topic,141070.msg1098560404.html#msg1098560404

[rezz]

Thanks for the links, I had read those before but it was good to be reminded there are others with a similar issue.

Apparently, the frame in these break open guns gives enough to allow the case to stretch and become too long between the base and shoulder.
My problem with head separation resulted from attempting to reform the brass to get it to fit well enough to eliminate the gap at the breech caused by the extra length.

So, now to figure out how to set my die to get rid of that extra length without wearing out the brass.
By the way, my 22-250 shoot very good with UMC 50s but didn't like the Win White Box 45s.
It also shoots very well with reloads using 35.5 gr of Varget and Vmax 50s. Another <MOA load I have found is 36.5 Varget with Vmax 55s.
I changed the OAL from 2.35 to 2.40 and the groups got even better. If I had a steadier bench and steadier form I don't doubt that it would put 3 in nearly the same hole at 100 yards.
I'm about to fix those issues and find out just how tight a group it will shoot.
After I figure out this resizing problem that is.

[snapcrackpop]

Somewhere on here I read about a neck AND shoulder die.  Can't remember where, but maybe that would make the shells fit without overworking the brass where it's not needed.

[KN]

That was probably from me. I posted about a Forester Bump and Neck die that I am using for a 22-250 Encore. I was having the same problem. Over sized chamber, causing excessive brass flow when full length sizing, causing case head separations after three firings. The Forester die works great for me. Although I still have to run them through the full length die just enough to barely size a little of the body or it closes hard. And I mean I am just barely snugging the case in the body die to accomplish this. I loaded three once fired cases seven times each with this method and the cases only grew an average of .001" between each firing. I saw no change in the body at all between firings. The brass still looks great.  Hope this helps.    KN

[rezz]

That Forster Neck and Shoulder die sounds good.
http://www.forsterproducts.com/Pages/precision_dies.htm
I looked around for one of those dies but haven't found one available anywhere yet.

My small base die arrived today and I'll be giving that a try as well.
I'll report back when the results are in. Maybe it will do, if not it sounds like the bump die will.
At least there seems to be a solution out there somewhere. I was beginning to worry.

[KN]

Midway has them. They are pricey though. $72 for the 22-250. But with the cost of brass going thru the roof that's not too bad.  KN

[rezz]

Thanks KN, I had been over there and saw the die only and it was special order 30+days.

They do have the die with bushings as you said. I will probably get one of those too to save some wear and tear on the brass.

[rezz]

I sized 20 cases with the recently received RCBS small base die and all appears well.
Shot 5 of these today and they were accurate, chambered well, and show no signs of problems.
These cases were all trimmed to 1.902 and loaded with 35.5 Varget and 50gr Vmaxs.
OAL was 2.39"
There is no sign of the bright ring on the case exterior and no ridge inside per the incipient gage...aka sharpened paper clip.

I ordered one of the Forster Neck and Shoulder dies last night as well. Together, it sounds like these 2 dies will take care of the issue with brass wear and head separation.
I also have an L.E. Wilson cartridge case gage for checking cone to head and OAL of these cases. It's hard to tell the difference between the .001 and .003 'steps' but still it is handy.
Will check back in with more info when I use the Neck and shoulder die.

[snapcrackpop]

Did the cases "grow" much this time?
How accurate?

[rezz]

OAL grew a little from 1.902 to 1.905
This growth appears to be between the shoulder and base once again since the Wilson gage shows a slight increase in this area.
The rounds still chamber ok with this minor growth.

Groups were about an inch but I had some gusty winds to deal with and only shot 5 rounds of these loads.
I should have the Neck and Shoulder die Monday and will give it a try along with a longer range session one day next week.

[snapcrackpop]

What does a "small base die" do?

[rezz]

Here it is from the source:

The Small Base Die set is intended for use for ammunition to be used in auto, semi-auto, and lever action rifles so that the loaded round chambers and extracts easily. The Small Base Sizer Die sizes the case from the shoulder to the head of the case a couple of thousandths smaller than a Full Length Sizer Die. In certain calibers it also sets the shoulder of the case back a thousandth or two more than the Full Length Sizer Die. The Full Length Die Set or Neck Die Set is not normally recommended for ammo to be used in auto, semi-auto, or lever action rifles. The Full Length Die set is recommended for ammunition used in bolt action rifles, particularly for ammunition to be used for hunting. The Neck Die Set can also be used to produce ammunition for use in bolt action rifles. The Neck Sizer Die sizes only the neck of the case so it will hold the bullet firmly. It does not size the body of the case nor does it set the shoulder back. Neck sized cases will usually chamber for three or more firings, depending on the powder charge and chamber dimensions. However, over a period of time, a slight drag will be noticed when the bolt is locked. At this point, cases will need to be full length sized and the shoulder set back so they will chamber and extract easily.

http://www.rcbs.com/questions/dies_questions.aspx

[KN]

If you are dealing with an loose chamber, a small base die is not what you want to use. That would make your problems worse.   KN