Author Topic: ULTRAGON RIFLING IN H&R ULTRA's (Read 2493 times)

neophyte · « **on:** January 12, 2008, 06:22:43 PM »

What is in a name ? I wonder if it will improve accuracy ?
I keep getting a feeling that this name was used 30-40 years ago
when they were making semi- auto rifles. Comments ?

Busta · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2008, 07:10:42 PM »

I don't know about it improving accuracy, but it is supposed to increase velocities a bit due to the sabot getting a better seal. Maybe it will increase overall accuracy due to more consistent velocities. This rifling IMO will be the berries for the Foster slugs, should be much easier removing lead with no sharp edges in the rifling. Kinda like a rifled smooth bore. I see a couple new Ultragon barrels in my future, the Ultra Light for sabots and the Tracker II for the Brenneke full bores.

greg916 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 13, 2008, 01:48:27 AM »

This type of rifling has been around for a while. The Confederate Wentworth rifle used something similar, a hexagonal twist, as well as similarly shaped bullets!

H&K uses polygonal rifling in their rifles, as well as the Glock .45 cal pistols.

As far as accuracy, the Wentworth is recognized as the most accurate military musket ever made. This is the rifle used by Sgt E. R. Grace when he killed Gen John Sedgwich. Just after he commented "they couldn't hit an elephant at this range".

The Wentworth did have a reputation of being difficult to clean, and hard to load after 2 or 3 rounds.

I could see a ultragon 20ga in my future!!

Cookiemann · « **Reply #3 on:** January 13, 2008, 02:56:47 AM »

Quote from: Busta on January 12, 2008, 07:10:42 PM

This rifling IMO will be the berries for the Foster slugs

Are you sayin' you can shoot either type slug and not have so much time cleanin' out the lead? I would like that...I like shootin' the cheap slugs. If I could shoot the cheap stuff and get better accuracy...what's not to like about that.

cookie

Markus · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2008, 03:26:32 AM »

As accurate as these guns are already I worry when they change them. I guess if it don't work out there are enough out there that I can find a used older one.

greg916 · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2008, 04:05:03 AM »

Glock cautions against using lead bullets in their 45 because the polygon rifling is prone to excessive leading.

greg916 · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2008, 04:22:28 AM »

Here is some interesting reading on polygonal rifling

http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2006/04/polygon-count.html

MSP Ret · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2008, 04:55:04 AM »

and one of the failings of many foster style shotgun slugs is they are cast of lead that is considered to soft. this does not look like a good combo for lead slug shooters, cheaper to manufacture perhaps and OK for sabotted shotgun ammunition but perhaps not what you want to shoot "slugs" from your shotgun....<><....

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2008, 05:35:50 AM »

I am loading my own all brass case slugs and I think this may be very good for the Dangerous game slugs that I am using as they are quite a bit harder than foster slugs and no sabot . I got a few ready to try in the 20 USH but will probably suspend testing until march when I buy one of the USHlite with the new rifling. I will shoot it some this weekend during our late doe season here in IL. But unless I shoot a couple and they are right on with the scope set up I will hunt with the buckhammers and probably trade the USH and the tracker II next week. Kurt

eye shot · « **Reply #9 on:** January 13, 2008, 06:13:40 AM »

If it would help with all the plastic fouling I get with my USH and 525 Lymans it would be a big improvement!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #10 on:** January 13, 2008, 06:33:42 AM »

Here's some more on polygonal rifling...

Tim

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polygonal_rifling

http://everything2.com/index.pl?node=polygonal%20rifling

Cookiemann · « **Reply #11 on:** January 13, 2008, 07:17:10 AM »

Thanks, guys, now I DO have a headache

I'll stick with my smoothbores! That's just too much technical stuff to learn. But, thanks, you did answer my question.

cookie

Busta · « **Reply #12 on:** January 13, 2008, 07:52:24 AM »

Quote from: greg916 on January 13, 2008, 04:05:03 AM

Glock cautions against using lead bullets in their 45 because the polygon rifling is prone to excessive leading.

I think people are mistakenly assuming the Ultragon rifling is a true polygonal rifling. If their diagram is accurate it is not polygonal rifling at all, it still has lands and groves with a less sharp transition between them. Nowhere has H&R/NEF stated that this is a polygonal rifling, it has been referred to as being "similar to parabolic rifling" by them. Only people here have been calling it polygonal rifling. I would say it is somewhere in between polygonal and traditional rifling, leaning heavily at the later. Just go take a look at the 2008 H&R/NEF Catalog, Page 7, look at the "NEW FEATURE" diagram of the Ultragon rifling as compared to Conventional rifling. Not much different except for the transition between the lands and grooves being at about a 45 degree angle instead of a right angle. I surely is not depicted as being rounded like the polygonal rifling being referred to here.

I have been shooting slug guns for about 35 years, rifled slug guns for 20 years. I have shot nearly every slug made, never had a problem shooting even soft lead slugs in a rifled bore, except for a little extra elbow grease to remove leading after several rounds. I surely don't see any problem here and unless H&R/NEF stamps "NOT FOR FOSTER SLUGS" on the barrel I don't for see any problems.

Glocks shave lead off due to the sharp transition from chamber to the polygonal rifling, I think that is where that problem lies.

This is what polygonal rifling looks like to me on the right, traditional rifling on the left.

Check out the diagram on page 7. Doesn't resemble polygonal rifling to me.
http://www.hr1871.com/Support/HR_2008_Catalog.pdf

deernhog · « **Reply #13 on:** January 13, 2008, 08:50:13 AM »

I have shot Glocks for 15 years and they all lead up from 9mm to .45 auto with cast lead. Remington sluggers shot from 50 yrds in my 12 ga. USH shot 3 (3 shot) groups into ragged holes before I had it adjusted to suit me. It cleaned well and easily with a swab, brush, bore snake and patches. Some leading but no worse than my .45-70 Marlin levergun. I can't imagine how much it would lead with the Remington hi-vel loads with the twist it has and have no interest in shooting them.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #14 on:** January 13, 2008, 08:52:59 AM »

Davidson's refers to the rifling as Ultragon/Polygonal on the 980 and 988. I believe Ultragon is just a form of polygonal rifling.

Tim

Add'l Features 1: Mount Included, Ultragon/Polygonal Rifling

http://www.galleryofguns.com/gungallery/powerSearch/product.asp?item_num=SB2-980&other_page=true&NA=true&lookup_date=12/18/2007

http://www.galleryofguns.com/gungallery/powerSearch/product.asp?item_num=SB2-988&other_page=true&NA=true&lookup_date=12/18/2007

Busta · « **Reply #15 on:** January 13, 2008, 05:13:20 PM »

Tim,

Thanks for posting that, but I think Davidsons added the Polygonal in there due to the Ultragon name. I have read H&R/NEF's Catalog, Web Site, and other releases. Nowhere have I seen them even use the word Polygonal. If it is as depicted in their graphic on page 7 of the 2008 Catalog it is not polygonal rifling as I understand it. I guess we found out "What's in a name", a lot of confusion. I guess we need to ask the experts at H&R/NEF if they know what it is.

Parabolic like rifling is the closest word they have used to Polygonal.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #16 on:** January 14, 2008, 07:38:54 AM »

I am gonna buy one I think this will work well with the full bore hard lead slugs I am gonna reload I see this type of rifling as an improvement and don't think the leading could be any worse than the big lead slugs coming out of my 45/70. The only soft lead slugs that ever proved bad for me in my 20's were the cheap winchester super x they suck and I got 30 boxes cheap that are relegated to smooth bore only. Kurt

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #17 on:** April 04, 2008, 08:27:06 AM »

BOOTYMONSTER · « **Reply #18 on:** April 19, 2008, 11:37:23 PM »

so its basically regular rifling but instead of a 90 degree shoulder it has a 45 degree shoulder ? the lil pin holes that might be in the corners of the 90 degree rifling aren't there in the ultragon rifling because the angles aren't as aggressive ? so what ever pressure leaked through the pin holes is eliminated increasing the pressure/velocity/power of the load being shot ? and the 45 degree rifling doesn't collect and hold lead as easily as regular rifling ? am i understanding the advertising correctly ? sometimes i need an English to idiot translation . lol

Busta · « **Reply #19 on:** April 20, 2008, 05:45:04 AM »

I think you basically nailed it BOOTYMONSTER, that is pretty much how I see it from the H&R/NEF diagram. Who knows if the graphic is correct though?

I see that Sports South lists the new .357/20ga combo as being in stock, was wondering if they have the Ultragon rifling or not. The .44 mag/12ga combo is not in stock. Has anyone got a new slug barrel with the ULTRAGON rifling yet?

This 20ga barrel is listed as having the scope base like the new Ultra Light Slug Hunter.

54396 H&R SC1-324 HANDI-COMBO 357/20GA SB $347.96

Item# 54396
Description: H&R SC1-324 HANDI-COMBO 357/20GA SB
SSSRP: $347.96

http://www.hr1871.com/

H&R 1871 INC Combo Slug Gun Packages H&R Single Shot 357 Rem./20 Ga. Combo w/Scope Base Handi-Rifles in 44 and 357 Mag. are also available in versatile combo sluggun packages. Choose from 44 Mag/12 Gauge slug gun combo or 357 Mag/20Gauge slug gun combo. Combo includes high density polymer Monte Carlo stockwith molded checkering on grip and forend, black matte finish, sling swivelstuds and recoil pad. Scope base included. No iron sights. SPECIFICATIONS:Mfg Item Num: SC1324 Category: FIREARMS - COMBO Action :Break Open Action (Single Shot)Caliber :357 Remington MagGauge :20 GaCapacity :Single ShotBbl Lengths :22", 24" Rifled SlugOAL :Rifle 38"/Shotgun 40"Weight :Rifle 7 lbs/Shotgun 7 1/2 lbsDrop :Stock :Polymer Monte CarloFinish :Black Matte Related Items: SSI# MFG# DESCRIPTION-----------------------------------------------------------------------54395 SC1414 H&R SC1-414 HANDI-COMBO 44/12GA SB 54396 SC1324 H&R SC1-324 HANDI-COMBO 357/20GA SB

http://www.internetguncatalog.com/Default.aspx?tabid=179

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #20 on:** April 20, 2008, 05:55:42 PM »

I don't know but I will be on the horn Monday to find out . It was my understanding the last thing I was told was the bbl would not go to production floor till Mid May-June. Kurt