45-70 KP1

[xhare]

Well I got my stainless/black synthetic KP1 45-70 off of layaway this weekend.  I got a chance to take it apart and see how everything works.  So far so good.  The trigger mechanism comes out very easily.  It almost comes out too easily, one might accidentally do it in the field.  Getting it back in was very difficult at first but once you learn how it is done, it becomes much easier.  Taking off the forearm and barrel is no problem.  The extractor easily removes and is used as the take down tool for barrel removal and for removing the firing pin (for conversion to rimfire).  The recoil pad is a bit misaligned, but that is not a big deal to me.

The 45-70 must not have been an original offering, as the instruction manual does not mention it except in the parts list area concerning extra barrels.   

The only troubling thing, as others have emailed me, concerns the hammer safety.  The hammer safety actuates what looks like a "ball" within the hammer.  When the safety is off, the ball projects from the hammer.  This ball is what actually hits the transfer bar, which then strikes the firing pin.  When the safety is on, the ball retracts into the hammer.  However, as others noted with their muzzelloader versions, even with the safety in the on position, pulling the trigger with a cartridge in the chamber results in a very slight indentation in the primer.  Let me say, no matter how hard I tried I could not get the primer to fire (I was using a primed and empty 45-70 case).  The primer strike was just slightly off center, so I rotated the primer several times and pulled the trigger.  Each time, I could see a tiny impression on the primer, but no ignition. 

Here is what I think may be happening.  When the safety is in the on position, spring tension on the ball is removed.  This I believe allows the ball to float free within the hammer.  When the trigger is pulled and the hammer falls, the ball comes forward with some force, but much less than when the safety is off.  This force is just enough to cause a small mark on the primer.  I am no gunsmith, for sure, but this looks like a possible cause to me.

Also, the hammer safety, I believe, is intended to be used when lowering the hammer on a live round before unloading the rifle.  The proper safe method of carrying this firearm is the same with other break action weapons.  Either with the weapon action opened, or at least with the hammer down until you intend to fire, ie the primer strike issue may not be a problem if the weapon is used properly.  That said, I believe that if they are going to use the hammer safety, it should completely prevent the firing pin from striking the primer.

In a few weeks I will have a chance to shoot it and investigate further.  I will see if I still have the primer strike issue with loaded ammo. 


Cheers, xhare.
 

[Underclocked]

Okay, since you have told everyone about the "issue", I will admit that my KP1 is back at Knight (or may be on its way back to me now) for engineering evaluation of the primer denting problem that xhare has mentioned.  I discovered the denting problem in my KP1 muzzleloader while using the red full plastic jacket setup.   I decided to test the effectiveness of the hammer mounted "de-cocking" safety by pulling the trigger with a primed full plastic jacket in place (otherwise unloaded of course) while the safety was ON.

Here is the result of my test 

Not a severe dent yet deep enough to make me a bit concerned.  I should think a "de-cocking" safety would never be relied upon but still should protect the primer from firing pin impact.  And my greater concern was what might the effect be in centerfire setups.   So far, I've heard nothing from Knight with regard to their concern or fix for this issue - and it may well yet be deemed a non-issue.  I had thought to let Knight respond before discussing this in public.

In my opinion the FPJ system in the KP1 is a total waste and its incorporation into the design creates additional problems for the KP1 as a muzzleloader.   The extractor, which is only used for the FPJ system, does not reliably extract... it hangs more often than not and makes removal of the FPJ more difficult than it would have been were the extractor completely absent.   Inserting the FPJ is a very awkward procedure that would also have been much easier without the faulty extractor in place.   The FPJ system in the KP1 is NOT a plus under any field conditions.   Its addition to the design results in a cut for the extractor being incorporated into the rear of the barrel, a cut which is a wide open path for blowback into the action if the extractor is not in place and that flow path is only slightly restricted with the extractor in position. 

Using the long-snouted 209 plug (non-FPJ plug) works just fine.  Priming is much easier and de-priming is not a problem.  But during it's use, the cavernous area around the plug is a great place for blowback deposits creating more cleaning hassle.  The cut in the barrel now provides that wide open path into the action as well. 

All in all, in spite of these observations, I believe the rifle is worthy as a muzzleloader but probably much more so as a cartridge rifle.    Knight could have done a better job at less cost by leaving the Full Plastic Jackets on the shelf, eliminating the additional cut in the barrel, using a more conventional 209 plug that would have not only better filled the "cave" but would have allowed some savings in overall length of the rifle (or added the gain to barrel length).

[30-06man]

Okay, since you have told everyone about the "issue", I will admit that my KP1 is back at Knight (or may be on its way back to me now) for engineering evaluation of the primer denting problem that xhare has mentioned.  I discovered the denting problem in my KP1 muzzleloader while using the red full plastic jacket setup.   I decided to test the effectiveness of the hammer mounted "de-cocking" safety by pulling the trigger with a primed full plastic jacket in place (otherwise unloaded of course) while the safety was ON.

Here is the result of my test 

Not a severe dent yet deep enough to make me a bit concerned.  I should think a "de-cocking" safety would never be relied upon but still should protect the primer from firing pin impact.  And my greater concern was what might the effect be in centerfire setups.   So far, I've heard nothing from Knight with regard to their concern or fix for this issue - and it may well yet be deemed a non-issue.  I had thought to let Knight respond before discussing this in public.

In my opinion the FPJ system in the KP1 is a total waste and its incorporation into the design creates additional problems for the KP1 as a muzzleloader.   The extractor, which is only used for the FPJ system, does not reliably extract... it hangs more often than not and makes removal of the FPJ more difficult than it would have been were the extractor completely absent.   Inserting the FPJ is a very awkward procedure that would also have been much easier without the faulty extractor in place.   The FPJ system in the KP1 is NOT a plus under any field conditions.   Its addition to the design results in a cut for the extractor being incorporated into the rear of the barrel, a cut which is a wide open path for blowback into the action if the extractor is not in place and that flow path is only slightly restricted with the extractor in position. 

Using the long-snouted 209 plug (non-FPJ plug) works just fine.  Priming is much easier and de-priming is not a problem.  But during it's use, the cavernous area around the plug is a great place for blowback deposits creating more cleaning hassle.  The cut in the barrel now provides that wide open path into the action as well. 

All in all, in spite of these observations, I believe the rifle is worthy as a muzzleloader but probably much more so as a cartridge rifle.    Knight could have done a better job at less cost by leaving the Full Plastic Jackets on the shelf, eliminating the additional cut in the barrel, using a more conventional 209 plug that would have not only better filled the "cave" but would have allowed some savings in overall length of the rifle (or added the gain to barrel length).

I can't agree more. The only good thing with the FPJ is its bigger so while you are hunting lets say in the cold and need a quicker second shot it would be easier with gloves to put into the breach plug.

[Underclocked]

I don't think you COULD even get one in there with gloves on.      And you can use a straight-line 209 capper with the regular 209 plug.  I've never been a fan of the plastic jackets but their incorporation into this design was a mistake for several reasons.

[Underclocked]

see below for repeat of what I'm eliminating from this post.

My replacement KRB7 barrel arrived today - MUCH better barrel than the first. A Batchief Trashcan sized to .503 started with reasonable ease and went smoothly down the bore leaving a very even and obvious engraving pattern on the bullet. As best I can mic' that bullet, the land to land in this barrel is .5028"

[30-06man]

Sounds good. Sorry for the reply being so late. I would still be uneasy with the primer deal here and I would hope Knight offers a volunteer recall sometime in the future or this could be a major problem IMO.

[30-06man]

Any updates?

[Underclocked]

On March 19th, I  had a lengthy and friendly phone conversation with Branch Meanley who is now at Knight Rifles Headquarters in Alabama. Branch Meanley is the founder of Green Mountain Barrels and quite an accomplished shooter as well http://www.gmriflebarrel.com/AboutUs .

I was told the issue of the indented primers is one that Knight was aware of... and was told they had done extensive testing of that safety and were never able to ignite a primer of any brand or configuration, nor ignite any of a list of cartridges that were tried in centerfire/rimfire barrels.

That may be reassuring but does not explain the safety's inclusion except to say that Knight felt such a safety offered a slight bit of additional margin for a user when de-cocking the rifle. There was not much disagreement that the hammer mounted safety was proving to be more a source of confusion than real benefit... so I would not be surprised to see it eliminated in the next variant of the rifle. He emphasized the safety was never intended to be used to accommodate dry-firing the rifle.

So far as the full plastic jacket, his opinion was basically the system still has merit and I disagreed. I suggested to him that actual owners of the rifle were finding no merit at all in its inclusion in the design. I don't think there was a strong argument offered up in favor of the plastic jacket for use in the KP1. Again, it would not surprise me to see a change there.

The take up on the KP1's trigger is there by design and will not and cannot be eliminated (not with that design). It was suggested the trigger offered better pull characteristics than did those from two named competitors. I suggested one of the named models was not even in the same league as the KP1 and, in the case of the other manufacturer's rifle, he might well be right as to the KP1 trigger being superior (on average) straight out of the box. It isn't hard to guess what model he mentioned and you won't be surprised to know I told him that particular model's trigger can be made about as perfect as a trigger can get. No argument there either.

The KP1 is still evolving and Mr. Meanley felt it had been released sooner than perhaps it should have been.

So, the hammer's de-cocking safety may be going away, the trigger will remain pretty much as is, and there was some defense of the full plastic jacket system but it too may disappear from the KP1.

I got my rifle back from Knight about a week after that phone call but have had only one opportunity to shoot it since.  They did replace the trigger/hammer assembly with one having a lighter pull-weight and also seems to have a shorter hammer throw.  Have not re-installed the FPJ plug and extractor since getting the rifle back to see if the denting issue was eliminated.  During the one shooting session,  I was playing with a different scope arrangement and managed to scope myself on the second shot.  Results were just so-so and certainly nothing to brag about.  Cleanup was still an issue. 

My experimental cover worked but carbonized after ~5 shots and ADDED to the fouling.  Back to the drawing board.     

At this point I would NOT recommend others buy this rifle as a MUZZLELOADER.  The NEXT batch may be wonderful but there are issues to correct. 

UPDATE:  I just now did the primer test with FPJ, hammer mounted de-cocking safety engaged.  No dent resulted in three tries.

[30-06man]

Thanks. I would think the ML barrel would shoot great based on my knowledge of Knight. I don't know about the FPJ being outphased anytime soon but I would expect them to keep it with their other ML's and I would expect a new trigger out soon if they hear enough bad about it and the same with the hammer. I wouldn't expect this until a few years down the road though.

[xhare]

Well it has been just over a month, but I finally got to shoot my KP1 45-70.  While I was not shooting for accuracy, offhand standing and sitting, the accuracy potential is definitely there. 

I had no malfunctions of any sort.  One thing that I did not realize was that the safety clicks off every time the rifel is fired.  I fired Hornady Leverevolution ammo with no problems, and several reloads.  It does have a short throat, also the chamber seems to be tight.  Some of my reloads inserted and extracted quite easily, other reloads resulted in tougher opening.  I believe that the hard to open reloads were due to some older brass that is on its last firing.  Reloads using Remington nickel plated brass went in and out the smoothest.

I only put about 25 rounds through it or so, it kicks as hard as any 45-70 I have ever shot.  That said, it did not beat up my cheek bone the way my Handi-Rifle does. 

[30-06man]

Sounds good. Post another range result when you shoot it for accuracy if you don't mind.


Thanks

[xhare]

I will be purchasing some mounts soon.  I have an older 2x7 Bausch & Lomb scope that has been on several harder kicking guns I have had over the years.  I soon as I get everything together I will be making a trip to a range and spending some time punching paper.