Punt Gun

[dominick]

Here are photos of a 1" bore muzzle loading punt gun I built this week.  It is mounted on  display legs that screw into the barrel lugs and has a caplock ignition with #11 nipple.

   

   

   

[dan610324]

thats an nice gun , but my english language skills aint enough to understand the word "punt" .

anyone who would like to explain that for an swedish fool   

[leesecw]

Dominick, are you from the east coast area? My Uncle lived in Solomons Maryland at the mouth of the Patuxent river on Chesapeake bay and was married to a lady that belonged to a famly that built boats there for many years. Ive seen some of those punt guns in her pictures on those boats they used for bringing down large numbers of ducks for sale on shore.  Ive also seen some of them in museums in the areas around there.  I may be mistaken but I seem to remember one of them took an 8 guage shotgun shelll. Nice post,  Brings back memories for me

[jeeper1]

A punt is a type of small boat.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punt_gun

[dan610324]

yeah , now I understand , we got similar here in sweden

but they usually was just extreme large caliber shotguns , weight approximately 35 pounds

[Artilleryman]

Check out the punt gun shown here.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AHFWh4XlJqU

[Victor3]

 I'd expect that would be a bit more accurate at long range than than the usual shorty cannon. It would be fun to put sights on it and try to hit gallon water jugs at 150 yds or so.

 Dom - Any idea what kind of muzzle velocity it would produce with your recommended powder charge and a lead ball?

[dominick]

Dominick, are you from the east coast area? My Uncle lived in Solomons Maryland at the mouth of the Patuxent river on Chesapeake bay and was married to a lady that belonged to a famly that built boats there for many years. Ive seen some of those punt guns in her pictures on those boats they used for bringing down large numbers of ducks for sale on shore.  Ive also seen some of them in museums in the areas around there.  I may be mistaken but I seem to remember one of them took an 8 guage shotgun shelll. Nice post,  Brings back memories for me

   Leesecw, I am from the east coast,  S.E. Pennsylvania to be more precise.  You are probably correct about the original Punt guns using 8 gauge shells, I wouldn't know myself.  The customer who ordered this gave me the specifications for building it and labeled it a "Punt Gun."  We agreed to keep it a muzzleloader because he wants to fire projectiles from it.

I'd expect that would be a bit more accurate at long range than than the usual shorty cannon. It would be fun to put sights on it and try to hit gallon water jugs at 150 yds or so.

 Dom - Any idea what kind of muzzle velocity it would produce with your recommended powder charge and a lead ball?

Victor, I have no idea.  It may or may not be more accurate and powerful with the longer barrel.  I think there is an optimum barrel length that once exceeded can be a hindrance more than a benefit especially with black powder guns.  I don't know what length that would be for a 1" bore. 

[dominick]

           
Here's a link to a muzzle loader Punt gun


                      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fg85k28b_dM&feature=related

[Cat Whisperer]

,...
  I think there is an optimum barrel length that once exceeded can be a hindrance more than a benefit especially with black powder guns.  I don't know what length that would be for a 1" bore. 

GOOD question. 

Two considerations, no 'answers'.

At some length the projectile is no longer accelerating.  So one can build to maximize velocity for a given charge/coarseness of powder.  One can also reduce the powder charge to less than maximum velocity for lesser noise.

Second, the barrel is moving (changing point of aim) constantly.  It does so for a shorter length of time if the travel time from loading postion to exit of the barrel is shorter - an influence on accuracy.

[Double D]

Muller discusses the optiumum barrel lenght in his treatise. Don't know where my copy is right now to discuss it, but if some has theirs handy, they might look it up for us.

[leesecw]

I figured  that it was somebody from the east coast that would have an interest in those punt guns. Ive seen some that took huge shotgun shells and there were even bigger ones that looked like the blunderbuss style weapons and loaded muzzleoader style. Maybe your next project? Hide the ducks!

[Victor3]

CW said:

"Second, the barrel is moving (changing point of aim) constantly.  It does so for a shorter length of time if the travel time from loading postion to exit of the barrel is shorter - an influence on accuracy."

 Hmmm... Could that really be a factor here considering the short time that the projectile is in the bore? Maybe it is, I don't know. I've never heard that long bbl length in a rifle is a cause for decreased accuracy over a short bbl.

 Just from my brief reading long ago on the subject, I seem to remember that experiments have shown that the bullet is long gone before much movement of the bbl that can have a significant effect on accuracy actually occurs.

 Again, I don't know if this is true or not. Anyone have any related info?

 

[KABAR2]

 ;

[Cat Whisperer]

CW said:

"Second, the barrel is moving (changing point of aim) constantly.  It does so for a shorter length of time if the travel time from loading postion to exit of the barrel is shorter - an influence on accuracy."

 Hmmm... Could that really be a factor here considering the short time that the projectile is in the bore? Maybe it is, I don't know. I've never heard that long bbl length in a rifle is a cause for decreased accuracy over a short bbl.

 Just from my brief reading long ago on the subject, I seem to remember that experiments have shown that the bullet is long gone before much movement of the bbl that can have a significant effect on accuracy actually occurs.

 Again, I don't know if this is true or not. Anyone have any related info?

There are several effects happening concurrently.

1. Is the ability of the shooter to hold the rifle steady.  Obvious from the improvement of group size by using a rest. A longer heavier barrel (especially if muzzle heavy) is more stable.  This plays against the movement DURING the travel.  Perhaps minor but still a variable that can be reduced by shorter barrel lengt.

2. Is the vibration of the barrel - the shorter (and larger in diameter) the less flex there is.  (Well exemplified by benchrest rifles and noteable on the difference between the 175mm Howitzer (Looooong barrel) and the 8" Howitzer (short stubby barrel) both mounted on the M109 tracked carriage - the 8" is MUCH more accurage, though 1" in diameter larger.  Longer gives better velocity, hence greater range but at the cost of accuracy.

Is there greater or less consistancy in muzzel velocity between short an long barrels ?  I don't have a clue.

[leesecw]

Punt guns werent used with solid projectiles. They were big shotguns used to spray large flocks of ducks. The skill in punt guns involved  sneaking up on the quackers while they were in large groups on the water and bagging as many as you could with one shot. I saw one reference many years ago that the small star shaped like jacks that were used by dropping them on the ground to cripple horse hooves of cavalry {cant remember their full name} were favorites of these punt gunners when they could get them. So if youre doing a bit of underwater metal detecting and you come across some of these star shaped objects, thats how they got there in the water

[Terry C.]

I saw one reference many years ago that the small star shaped like jacks that were used by dropping them on the ground to cripple horse hooves of cavalry {cant remember their full name} were favorites of these punt gunners when they could get them.

Caltrops.

[leesecw]

Thanks for the refire of the brain neutrons. I couldnt remember that word for dickens. I wish I would have saved that reference using the caltrops to kill ducks. Interesting use for Civil War surplus

[Artilleryman]

Speaking of Civil War and shooting ducks.  There was one case where a Federal artillery unit was looking for a Christmas dinner and used 12pdr canister to shoot at ducks on the Potomac River.  They apparently got quite a few which they retrieved when the wind blew them into shore.  Somehow punt gun just doesn't describe it.  Sorry to have digressed on the punt gun topic.