Daveinthebrush:please reply

[Oreducksfan]

Please enlighten me because, I lack in experience.

I was reading a post that you replied too. It was on the subject of ammo for bear defence. You stated your first choice of firearm was 2 rds of steel BBS followed by slugs. I understand the slugs, but, what is the purpose of 3" steel BB's.

Ive shot geese at 10 yrds with 3" steel bb's square center mass, only to have them bounce off, as the goose gathers it's sences and flys off into the sunset, only leaving me to wonder "what the hey".

I was just wandering, what am I not understanding?

Now don't tear me up for my ignorance!

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It is Oregan not Or-e-gon dang it!

[Paul H]

The funny thing about bear defense loads is that there are lots of opinions out there, but 99+% of people carrying bear defense weapons have never needed to use them for defending themselves.  So, there are lots of wonderful theories about what might work, should work, et al.

I've done lots of reading on the subject, and talked to a fair number of guides and hunters.  What that has educated me to is the fact that shotguns are unreliable against bears, even with slugs.  The only thing that works reliably is a large bore rifle.  One shouldn't rely on a magazene full of marginal rounds when the only thing you may get is one shot.  

I sold my bear shotgun to get my kids a 22 rifle, a much more useful tool.

[volshooter]

Here in the southern states a 12ga with slugs or 00 buck will handle any blackie out there. ( average around 250-300 )I know y'all get bigger bears than we do and I can see a need for some real whoop butt in the great north west. If a feller wanted to sting a bear in stead of killing him 3" BB's would sure do that. Perhaps that is the desire for 2 rounds backed up by slugs.
Rick

BTW, the professional poachers working the Smokey Mountains use CCI .22 Stingers on bear. I've worked around them for 20 years and it is without any doubt the #1 bear/deer killer in TN. Eye/nose shots are prefered with a below the ear shot not uncommon. These guys kill with one shot because of law enforcement being able to track any follow up shots, so they have experience with what it takes to kill. A charging bear would certanily be a whole different set of rules.

[rimfire]

Having tested and hunted with buckshot for quite a while, it is hard for me to imagine anything "shrugging off" a close range hit with it.  I have gotten full penetration on whitetails at 50 yards with Fed Premium 00 buck.  Measured in feet at a bear coming full on I would feel less than helpless with 12-15 00 buck pellets at 1250 feet per second.  

Slugs...big chunk of lead available in penetrating rounds such as Brenneke's...little expansion.  How can this not do a good job if placed anywhere worthwhile?  With a large bear I think this makes more sense. At the distance we would shoot to protect ourselves the buckshot does not spread much if at all so hitting with a slug is just as likely...and the slug will penetrate much better.  

I read an article recently where a guy blamed the use of buckshot on someone getting mauled by a Leopard.  Leopard maxes out at 200 pounds...give me a break.  Anyone who has shot a deer at 15 yards or less with buckshot would not call it inaffective on a 200 pound animal at defense ranges.  I want slugs for a big bear, but lets give buckshot the minimal credit it at least deserves.

[Paul H]

A 1000# bear is a much different animal then a 200# whitetail!  I think this is the biggest problem, folks getting past their thinking that all there experience hunting one species applies to other species, it just doesn't, and there is a huge difference between a thin skinned non dangerous animal, and a heavy boned, fat laden dangerous animal.  Do the whitetails always drop at the shot?  If it trots off 20 or 50 yds, no big deal.  A bear on the other hand, after recieving a fatal wound, but not having decided to die, can quite ably disembowel you.

One also cannot ignore the fact that in a charge, you do not have the time to carefully place your shot.  Your single shot needs to with less then ideal placement either stop or turn the animal.  A shotgun cannot be relied upon to deliver this sort of blow to a bear.  The vast majority of bear guides carry a 375 H&H, or larger, because they work reliably.

Dangerous game animals deserve respect, that is why one should choose something that is proven in the field, not theorized on the internet.

[volshooter]

I just looked at Winchester's Supreme Gold Sabot 12ga. They are listed at 1900 fps, 385 gr, and 3085 ftlb. I'm just guessing but that's about 75% of the .375 H&H isn't it? I cannot speak for Alaska big bears but nothing in the south could stand up to 5 of these Winchester slugs. Personally, not ever having been up aginst a 1000 lb bear, I'd think I'd feel pretty good dang good with a tube full of these puppies between me and a bear. I hope I never have to find out.
Rick

[Oreducksfan]

Great input guys, but nobody has answered my question. STEEL bb's loaded in 3" 12 ga. for bear defence?  In the pacific nw they just bounce off geese (at close range even), why would someone feel steel shot is ideal for bear? This is what I'm confused with!

I've never shot a 12ga. slug, at a living animal before, but Ive blown the snot out of wooden pallets, water filled jugs, wasps nests with them.(the later is not recomended unless someone has a Ben Franklin in their hand and you can run really fast, faster than the fool, that bets you 100 bucks to do it, helps even more.) I can just imagine what they would do to a 200-300 lbs. animal.

As a side note: I mad because my Sig p229 broke yesterday. 5 shots into the mag and the action froze up. I busted something internal, have to send it back to Sig. Was only shooting factory S&B 140 gr. 357sig rounds.
Life sometimes is hard!


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it is Oregan not Or-e-gon dang it!

[Matt in AK]

Try posting on the Alaska forum.  Dave's usually pretty active there.

[Daveinthebush]

I knew that one day someone would ask the question:  Why the bird shot first.  When I was first thinking of moving here I did as many of you have done and posted a question on a forum concerning bears. The advice of shot & slugs was presented to me as an answer several years ago by, if I remember correctly, a firearms instructor in Fairbanks.

1.  If it gets to the point where you are really concerned and it looks like you are being considered as a dinner guest, fire a warning shot to startle the bear and possibly get him to understand that you do not want to be dinner.  Don't waste a slug.  Fish and Game is going to investigate the shooting and if you can claim that you did everything within your power to avoid the confrontation, warn the bear, walking slowly away......whatever, you are going to have a better chance of not getting fined.

2. If he then does attack, the first shot is probably the most important.  If the bear takes a direct hit in the face with a good shot charge, he is then probably. A. Blinded  B. Has a nose full of blood and can't smell you. C. Has shatted jaws/teeths/ego.

3. Three slugs. ONLY Brenneke slugs. I would never put my life on the line with a Foster slug.  They are pure lead.  The Brenneke slugs are heat treated or hardened just for dangerous game (1 3/8" 3").  They are specifically designed for heavy game and I could never imaging wasting a 3" 1 3/8 oz. slug on a deer.  

So that is the reasoning.  And YES, there are many opinions out there.  Have I ever had to put it to a test no.  Do I want to, NO.

Many Alaskans will swear by rifles only. .338, .375, .416, .458..... and that is their opinions.  Rifle, shotgun, handgun, pepper spray, little bells..... It is everyones own choice as to what they want to carry.  I usually carry my .35 Whelen with 250 grain slugs and ALWAYS.......My .44 mag.  with 300 grain slugs.  There are times that I used to carry the shot gun more because I had a 21" turkey barrel with a big, low visibality white bead on the front.  I sold the complete shotgun w/2 barrels to an Athabaskin elder up on the Yukon.

Summation:  Use what your most comfortable with, can hit the quickest with and have the most faith in.

I hope this answers your question.  

Davinthebush

[Daveinthebush]

Back in New York where I started hunting big game we could only use shotguns.  So I have been shooting slugs for too many years now.  OK so for 37 years.  I am really comfortable with a shotgun in my hands.  Can't hit a duck but sure can hit a buck.

The only rifle shooting that I did was with a .257 Roberts on woodchucks and crows.  So my bolt action shooting is weak since I am right handed and left eyed.  That is the reason for the 7600 pump in .35 Whelen, closest thing to a shotgun in a rifle that you could buy. I still shoot right handed bolt guns left handed.  Just could not afford a lefty gun as a kid.

[markc]

"BTW, the professional poachers working the Smokey Mountains use CCI .22 Stingers on bear. I've worked around them for 20 years and it is without any doubt the #1 bear/deer killer in TN".

Can you or would you explain this to me?  It almost sounded like you condone this illegal behavior, or atleast do nothing to stop it.  I know it is off subject a bit from the original question, but since you posted it I thought I would ask.   Poaching, .22 stinger on a bear isn't the same as stopping a bear totally aware of your presence and ticked off I wouldn't think.  So a .22 stinger sounds like a foolish thing to me, and to call a poacher a professional is an oxymoron if ever I heard one.

markc :?

[volshooter]

Yo Mark, I was making a pun by putting "professional" and "poachers" together. Hell, I turn them in whenever I see them. Any idiot can poach. Condone it? Not hardly. Here in TN the wildlife folks have to " FIND PROOF" in order to do anything. Working construction for so many years put me working close to fellers who bragged about poaching game. Sometimes a set of bear feet or a nice deer mount would come by the jobsite. I'm not sure how it is where you are but just seeing these things is not even enough for a warrant here.
As far as mentioning the use of .22 STINGERS on illegal bear/deer the point was that even the puny .22 will kill with well placed shots. (this thread did start with something about how much power is needed for bears) I've been told that bears chased up a tree by dogs are quickly dispatched by flashlight and STINGERS. I've heard the same about bayed bears. These bears would be ticked off I believe. I would not think anyone would condone hunting bear with .22's, but fact is it does happen, just ask Tennessee Wildlife game wardens.
Some folks here in the Smokey mountains hunt without reguard to man's laws because their daddies did it and the're daddies before that did. They feel they have the G** given right to hunt as they see fit. Occasionally one of them will get caught. They loose their gun, truck, right to hunt for one year and an average $5,000 fine. Not much incentive to stop when a single black bear gall bladder can fetch $1500. Our wardens cannot be everywhere and have large areas to cover. By the time a report gets to them the poachers are long gone. It is a sad FACT that more bears are killed in east TN by poachers than legal, law abiding hunters. Makes me sick the response I have gotten in the past when reporting poaching. Same as the illegals we have here, we don't even have an INS office in east TN so they just let them go because no one will pay for transport to Memphis.
Closing, poaching here is a very big money making operation. Throphy deer have beeen killed out of highly protected areas, right under the nose of officials. If they manage to get one (poacher) he gets a slap on the wrist (no jail time) and you get your house burned to the ground for your trouble. (funny thing, lots of fires here too) I wish they would put some teeth in the laws. I'm tried of paying over $100 a year for the privledge to hunt legally and Billy-Bob kills out of his back yard with a .22 and a spotlight. I must be living wrong.
Rick  

[rimfire]

Saw a judges comment in a paper a few years ago not far from me where they said that the deer were overpopulated as admitted by the Department of Conservation so the judge saw no reason to punish poachers at all.  Dismissed charges against several that day as a "victimless" crime.

Thanks alot.

Today I witnessed a blatant violation of the game laws here in New York by my next door neighbor.  Mentioned to several aquaintences and basically was told to mind my own business as it wasn't my property.

I hate this attitude.  The scary thing is that if I report it I am now scared that my "firends" will spread who was complaining about it and the consequences to me will be greater than the consequences to my neighbor.  Guess I should have told noone but the DEC, and that anonymously.  Why should I be hiding...I didn't break any laws.

Sometimes life sucks.

[Daveinthebush]

The DEC in NY used to have a 1-800 unmber to turn in porchers anomonously.  (If I spelled that right.)  And yea, telling anyone is not good.  You just never know who knows whom.

Good Luck.

[dabigmoose]

well
 I know all of this sounds good in theory but when your faced with something as big as a brown bear see (Jurasic Park) a lot of people loose there will to fire at the bear and will run.I have seen many a client say never mind were just to close.I have friends that still guide and it still happens. There are also people that accidently shoot cubs 300 to 400lbs thinking they are the grown bear  and the sow shows up lot bigger and they drop their gun and try to run up a tree.This is why all none Residents have to have a guide when hunting Grizzly/Brownie.The noise of a pissed sow is loud and un-nerving with the jaw poping and roars and charge its not for the faint of heart.

 Brown Bear are Known to absorb phenomenal amouts of lead and still
kill people.Using a shotgun and having a lot of rounds may make you feel better but you probably will only get off one shot maybe .This is the point
Paul was trying to make and Dave is correct fish and game will come to investigate any defense of life and property Bear shooting and if you
had time to fire five rounds at the bear you probably are far enough away
to get out of the area thats how they view it YOU should try to avoid the confrontation and they will bring every kind of forensic team thought of. Hunting Brown Bear and being hunted by Brown Bear is totally different been there done bothmany times.Leave the shotgun for ducks But any gun at the last momentis better than none. I have killed them with the 30/30 to the 458 and everyone of them went down differently some were wounded by people and took a lot to stop them.
 
The leopard I have never done the africa hunt But JJhack in the african
forum will be back from his hunts in a few weeks he would be a good source for that one.Heres a little something on shotguns
http://www.african-hunter.com/Rifle_Choice_4_Dangerous_Game.htm

Dabigmoose