New HandGonne Project

[dan610324]

thank you for the help

[GGaskill]

If anyone has suggestions on achieving the look of bronze in a durable fashion (as durable as bluing), I'm all ears.

Should be able to get a steel one bronze plated for less than the cost of a bronze tube.

[dan610324]

I remember a long time ago when we was supercharging engines we had problems with the top of the pistons , then we contacted an company that was spraying them with an ceramic layer . they had an special spray gun , something between an spray gun for paint and an blowtorch , they could put any material in an thin layer at an metal , it was an extremely fine powder that was melting and sprayed at an metal surface . people working with that must be able to give anything made from steel an bronze layer . it will create an layer maybe 1000 times thicker then electro plating .

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

Good idea to plate it.  I'll have to look into that option.  Also, thanks for the suggestion of 360 brass.  It does appear to be a better option than the 660.

[dan610324]

PLEASE DONT USE BRASS

there is an reason why original cannons never was cast in brass

its to fragile

brass will easily crack from the pressure inside the tube , when an brass cannon explode it will become hundreds of small fragments flying around , if an bronze barrel will explode , they are more likely to just open up an crack , but still be in one piece .

brass is an much cheaper metal than bronze , if it had been possible to use it for cannons they should of course used it , they did use thousands of tons to cast the cannons.

please dont use brass
better safe then sorry

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

Just curious why Brass, with higher yield and tensile stengths  and elongation, and also a cuprous alloy, would have issues when bronze doesn't?  It was a suggestion from GGaskill, though I think I remember seeing some discussion of it on some other thread.  Does it respond differently to the change of pressure/temperature than bronze?  Why?

Dan, do you have a specific bronze in mind that you would recommend for strength/machinability?

[dan610324]

well I cant explain , mostly because I dont know .
we did a few tests some years ago , we decide to have some barrels to explode.
brass was easy and they spread pieces of scrap metal all over the place , but the bronze barrels just opened up from breach to muzzle almost . we couldnt have an bronze barrel to explode in the same way as an brass barrel did .
I cant say why , but all those tests was of course using bp , then we decided to use nc in one bronze barrel ( R1 ) , then we got the same effect , we spread scrapmetal all over the place again .

the bronze alloy we used was 90% copper and 10% tin

the brass was just an mix of scrap metal , cant guess what alloy that was .

ok today there are a lot of modern alloys that maybe would work as cannon material . and probably also better bronze then the 90/10 I use , but I like to keep it as close to the original as possible .

I know you amercans often use an alloy called gunmetal :  88% copper , 8% tin , 4% zink
I never tried it , so I got no info about it .

all my experiance from cannons is from cast cannons , I have never tried do one by turning , ok I got an good workshop in the basement with both an lathe and an milling machine .
but I am of that opinion that cannons should be cast as they was 400 years ago 

but if you are interested in antique gun alloys there is an book from the archaeological research laboratory in Stockholm university , its an doctoral dissertation named : the inception of copper mining in Falun .
written by : Helena Forshell
I got an copy of it from uppsala university just a few years ago , they probably still got it .

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

Looks like the trick with bronze is that many bronzes are hard to machine.  The C93200 (660) is one of the few that is relatively easy to machine, which is why it seems to be used for so many applications.  Another one, C93700, looks like it may have some additional benefit in a gonne, but not being a metallurgist, I'm not sure. 

I think with the success others have had using 660, I may go with it, depending on the price.  The other option is to just settle for the steel, which is not bad (and Kap offered it at a nice price), but just not my preference.

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

I just got off the phone with The Rifle Shoppe, and they are using C36000 (360) brass for their tannenberg.  Of course, I forgot to ask them what their max proof and suggested loads are! 

Well, I'm really not sure what to go with now.  I know, Dan, you would stay away from the brass, but it does have higher strength and elongation than the bronze.  I feel like a hamster trapped in a wheel...

[dan610324]

I can understanh how you feel , but I cant help you   
as Im one of those original freaks 

but to be safe you could use steel and have it sprayed with bronze

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

After looking at projects from another forum and advice there, I think 660 should be fine.  As I stated before, price will probably be the final decision maker, and whatever I go with, I'll do some proof shots with.

[Tropico]

Kap Yes I am still interested in that Swivel

Also my Gonne was made of 1.5" 660 round bar., and its a .50 cal.., its just fine. My CC swivel has no liner and its 660 and fine. I have a 2nd swivel its got no liner., I can go on., even my thunder mug is bronze and it has no liner., Originals were Bronze and they had no liner. My iron guns do have a liner and a breach plug., My Steel cannons have no liner and are machined from round bar..., everything else is machined or cast in bronze with the exception of some stainless items.     Bronze it doesn't rust.  I think you'll be fine with a 660 if you want a bronze gun.., however., there is nothing youll be able to do to replicate a bronze., short of doing a bronze gun.,  plating will wear down with a few cleanings.  i clean mine everytime I shoot it. (If you havent got time to clean it..., you really havent got time to shoot it)
 

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

Cleaning is a part of shooting.  I'm just waiting on the quote from Kap on the 660.  The steel was a nice price, and is hard to resist, but I don't see the 660 being out of my budget.  Thanks for the input - and nice guns ya got there!

[intoodeep]

Kap,

 PM sent.

[KABAR2]

Has anyone heard from Kapullen? I left a couple of pm's for him and have not heard anything,
I tried his website and the Domain name is for sale, I tried to email him from an address off another site
it bounced back undelivered. I hope everything is O.K. with him, just seems strange he hasn't check back in.

Allen <><

[gulfcoastblackpowder]

I haven't heard from him either.  It seems that he gets busy and doesn't regularly have time to log in.  Either that, or my indecision drove him away from the site .

[GGaskill]

See his note at the beginning of this post.