45 colt shotshells

[Sweetwater]

Burch & Stimpy-

Yee-Haw!!! I love it when a plan comes together!!!  Great going, guys!! 
I haven't had a chance to make more than the prototype I built the other day, but you all have fueled my fire!!  I'm pretty much back to work and lay off has turned into overtime so will have to research and develop as time allows. I do need to get some Unique as this Herco is responding like it is too slow for the application. I did get 205gr of #8 shot but my cases are 1.725 and I think I'll go
for the full 1.75 on the next go round.

Which raises a question for both of you-

Burch - what case length did you end up with? 

Stimpy - why are you trimming to 1.47 when you have so much case length available? I guess I don't see why they have to be any shorter than the cylinder as there is no 'bullet jump' here to lock up the cylinder. What am I missing?

Not sure I mentioned but I did cap it with a 44 gas check and applied a touch of Elmer's to hold it in place as I still haven't picked up the 44 Crimp die. I took it to work and the guys were quite taken with it. They all shoot something and a couple are 45 fans.

LOOKING GOOD from here!!!

Regards,
Sweetwater

[stimpylu32]

Sweetwater

Just picked that number at random , cut them short till i see what the case is going to do as it fireforms , I will check the numbers after it forms and if it stays at cut length the next batch will be at full cylinder .

stimpy

[burch]

Stimpy,
  When I cut my casings I cut them about 1/16" shorter than my cylinder. When I fireformed them yesterday I checked the length and it stayed the same. Now after a few firings if they chenge and i`ll cut them back a little but with the very low pressure thing I don`t see `em needing trimed for a long time.

        Burch

[stimpylu32]

burch

Thanks buddy , I was not sure how the brass was going to react when it formed to the chamber after being run in the 270 die . If after i shoot these and the COL stays the same I'll cut the next batch to 0.020 short of a full cyl. , also need to talk to my neighbor to see if he has any #8 shot i can get ( he shoots trap & skeet ) .

stimpy

[burch]

I reloaded my 444 casings for a second time with the 8.0 gr. increase. I found out after the fact that they don`t fit my cylinder once again.  I figured after fireforming i`d have no problems with them.
 " Lesson Learned "   Before reloading make sure you resize the necks again. I`ll have to take `em apart and start over.

          Burch 

[Sweetwater]

Burch-

Before you take them apart, unless you have already, you can put them up your 270 sizer just enough to fit your neck a touch. Try it and feel it into place. Should work. Curious here - the ones I made for my 41 didn't need sizing, as predicted.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[burch]

I`ll try doing it without taken `em apart. I`ll just take out the primer pin.

[burch]

Sweetwater,

   I`ve decided to get a cheap single stage press and set it up just for resizing these casings. I hate having to reset my 45 colt die everytime I want to do this. What resizing die would you recommed I use for it. I want to do this hassle free so i`ll buy the right one I need.

         Burch

[Sweetwater]

Burch-
OK now it gets a little sticky. I need to retract a statement I just made. I checked the fireformed cases in 'all' the chambers - I have two 41 revolvers and a rifle, and they will go but are sticky. Remember, these are 30-30 cases fireformed for the 41mag, but the relationship should hold true to a degree anyway. I stuck them up my 38-40 (401) sizer until the shoulder touched, and just a shadow of change in the shoulder allowed an easy fit. I know, I'm changing the shoulder shape a touch, but I don't see the point in having a die custom built for this for what I'm doing with it. When it goes commercial is time enough to go there! LOL! Note: I did try full-length sizing in the 41mag die, and it fit the body fine, the extra length appears not to be an issue - yet. So, makes the issue area the neck or neck-shoulder joint area. I believe it to be the neck-shoulder joint and setting the shoulder just a touch seems to be the ticket - so far.

Want to share the royalties - or just keep them all to yourself!!! LOL!!!!

Back to the 444's. If you (maybe Stimpy can help here) found a wildcat loading a 44 (429) into a 454 or 460 case, that would likely be the right sizing die to be 'hassle-free'. Lacking that, possibly a 44-40 sizer used judiciously. I just ran a 444 into my 38-40 die and the body is fine - of course it's the wrong neck size, but the point is the shoulder is what is hanging you up, I believe, so a 44-40 might be the number to 'adjust' your shoulder and allow the fit as the neck size of the 44-40 should be about right for your cylinder. I'm thinking a 44mag/spl sizer might work also - there isn't a shoulder area in the die, but the body of the 44 might just touch your shoulder enough to do the job. Of course, it's possible that the 44-40 might do all the sizing necessary, body and neck. That would be my choice, given no further input than what we have at this point.
The Experimenter is in the house!

Let me know how all this shakes out.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[stimpylu32]

Sweetwater

The one I do is a .44 to .41 so that's not much help , using the 460 cases I just run them back into the 270 sizing die before reloading them and that cures the problem of the throat as it squeezes the neck just enough to clear . I'm also using a cardboard wad so its a little more forgiving than what a gas check would be .

Burch

Just pull the decapping pin on your 270 die and run them up into the die just enough to shrink the throat area and you should be fine , make sure you use just a little case lube so you don't stick the case .

stimpy

[Sweetwater]

Stimpy-
I thought you might have the solution for Burch - Thanks!! You think the 460 is a better way to go than the 444? Just a question.

Burch-
Sounds like you might have it going for you there. Back to work here so pretty quiet in the gunroom. Good to hear of your exploits.

Regards,
Sweetwater 

[stimpylu32]

Sweetwater

Not sure about better as I've only done them with the 460 cases , I do know that in my guns its as simple as 1-2-3-4

 (1) trimming to length

(2) run into a 270 FL Sized die

(3) load powder , wad , shot and another wad

(4) shoot

Finding the trim length was as easy as measuring the cylinder , adding the rim thickness and subtracting 0.010  to get a COL , as for wadding I just used a 45LC case with the case mouth sharpened with a champher tool and cut them from an old shotgun shell box , they measure 0.025 , you can also buy them at 0.025 from Track of the Wolf in their PB loading supplies .

The only reason that I had to reduce the rim diameter. was to fit my 45LC shell holder , had more than enough rim space in the cylinder , solved that problem by ordering a 460 S&W shell holder . 

stimpy

[Sweetwater]

Stimpy-
Assuming your 45colt is a Blackhawk, I'm happy to hear there is room for that rim. That may be way simpler than the 444's though once trimmed the first time, the 444's should work in the 270 die like the 460 does. Guess an '06 die should work the same. I doubt I could get a 460 shellholder w/o using an adapter for my old Herters press. i'm on my second adapter and I don't like them.

You catch that, Burch? Your 270die may be all you need.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[stimpylu32]

Sweetwater

Ya I have a BH and 2 Taurus Trackers in 45LC , the rim of the 460 will work in all 3 just fine , as for the shell holder I can were it could be a problem with the old Herters press .

You need to break down and get you one of the little C style Lee presses just for this kind of thing , their tougher than they look and are just the ticket for this kind of stuff . Plus they will take standard shell holders from just about any company .

stimpy

[Sweetwater]

My Dad will be 81 in a couple of months and he has my gramp's Pacific press, similar to an RCBS Jr and has the upgraded ram for modern shellholders. Dad stopped shooting a year or so ago - cataracts and better judgement according to him - so I do expect that press to find it's way to Idaho before too long. Believe I can hold out. Thanks for the encouragement. That old Herter's press has kept me from buying a lot of guns I might have over the years, but not any that I really wanted. Like that 45 Colt! And a 6.5TCU that I adapted a 45-70 shellholder with a horseshoe collet from a bullet puller to handload when I was participating in IHMSA. Really, I had to take a file to my 32Spl holder to fit my 41Mag. It's been one thing after another. Always adapting something to fit something else. Hope to get back to making shotshells in a week or two. Just two busy right now.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[alan in ga]

I'm not sure if this is what you're trying to find,,,but here is what I do: I just use 44 Rem Mag FL die to size  444 Marlin cases. I size them JUST to where they will chamber in my Ruger Blackhawk cylinder. The newly formed bottle neck is sized to where it just clears the throat of the 45 Colt cylinder chambers. Then of course I cut the 444 cases to just short of the Blackhawk's cylinder length. Cases still will need to be fireformed. No bullets should be loaded, just shot with over powder and over shot wads [or the wax as mentioned].
George Nonte's book Handloading for Handguns [I think that's right title] has a good article on 'cylinder length shot shells' for revolvers. Mentions a few cases that work for these hair brain ideas. I love some hairbrain ideas!
Does this help anyone? 44 mag dies are common.

[Sweetwater]

Alan of Ga- Welcome to you, Sir
Hair-brained ideas have kept me interested in all this when the mundane act of reloading bored me to tears. Probably why I differentiate between reloading and handloading. I find reloading cost effective for my hobby of interest and convenient as I can make what I want when I want it. If I'm 'out', it's my own fault. I find handloading the Art of Making It Happen. I totally enjoy taking a cranky weapon and getting it to shoot dependably with reasonable accuracy. I also have successfully translated data from various manuals to find a starting load for a cartridge that wasn't listed with a given powder and finding a workable load. (It's been a great education!) Or...taking a thought or concept and with a diligent crack at research, embarking on an adventure with a weapon, as this has been with these cylinder length shotshells. Wading through the what-ifs is nearly as much fun for me as taking the neatly formed casings out of the chambers.
With this one, exchanging with Burch and Stimpy has been the highlight for me. They've been great correspondents, and willing to share and give thought to what others propose. Alan, your input is greatly appreciated. I thought the 44mag trick might work, but I still haven't picked up my buddy's spare 44mag sizer die. T'will be forthcoming.

Regards,
Sweetwater