Author Topic: Ascorbic Acid Based Powders (Read 3261 times)

30-06man · « **on:** December 04, 2007, 12:13:41 PM »

Ascorbic Acid Based Powders
http://www.whitemuzzleloading.com/black_powder.htm
The earliest attempts at replacement in our day resulted in the ‘Golden Powder’ of the 1970's. It was made with ascorbic acid, which is Vitamin C, as the fuel. It was intensely hygroscopic, both before and after firing, sucking up water like a sponge. Exposure to moist air changed its shooting qualities enormously and shelf life was abysmal. It went exactly nowhere.

Development has continued in the last decade with Ascorbic Acid based powders although under different auspices and with better success. One product was Black Canyon powder, which was available for a couple of years. This powder was large grained, blackish, produced somewhat lower velocities compared to Black Powder but with less smoke when shot across my son David’s chronograph

Both Black Canyon and CleanShot use Ascorbic Acid for fuel, although granulation is quite different. Only CleanShot is currently available.

alsaqr · « **Reply #1 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:48:13 AM »

The White website has not been updated in years. Goex Pinnacle is an ascorbic acid based powder made for Goex by American Pioneer Powder, formerly Clean Shot. It appears that Pinnacle is a little more powerful than APP.

30-06man · « **Reply #2 on:** December 05, 2007, 10:58:01 AM »

Thanks for the info. Did not know that about cleanshot though. I have never use app or goex but Ill try to get some to try out.

alsaqr · « **Reply #3 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:05:38 AM »

"I have never use app or goex but Ill try to get some to try out."

I use a granular powder made by APP called Jim Shockey's Gold. It produces fine accuracy in my Encore .50 caliber. It is not as powerful as Pyrodex but it cleans up a lot easier.

There is a citrus based powder called Black Mag 3. According to the NRA tests this is a very powerful powder. They averaged 2,004 fps with 100 grains of the stuff and a 250 grain SST bullet. i have never used Goex Pinnacle or Black Mag 3.

30-06man · « **Reply #4 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:12:21 AM »

Let me rephrase what I said. I haven't used it in my guns but I shot my brothers muzzle loader and that's all he uses. Does it clean up better than 777?

alsaqr · « **Reply #5 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:34:56 AM »

"Does it clean up better than 777?"

JSG cleans up much easier than 777. You do not get that 777 crud ring either.

30-06man · « **Reply #6 on:** December 05, 2007, 11:51:11 AM »

I have heard that there was intensity's in the power and the quality was low. Is there or is that only in the stick form?

Smokepole cowboy · « **Reply #7 on:** December 05, 2007, 12:21:05 PM »

I have tried APP sticks and they worked great at the range, but on a shot at a doe, it fired, but sounded and felt like about a 20 grain charge.

I switched to the Goex Pinnacle 3F and LOVE it. It is accurate, easy to clean, no crud ring and I am 2 for 2 on shots at deer with it.

30-06man · « **Reply #8 on:** December 05, 2007, 12:35:33 PM »

I have heard so many things on the app not being the size of the caliber and scraping off because it wasn't compressed

jjenkins · « **Reply #9 on:** December 05, 2007, 02:59:05 PM »

i have been shooting cleanshot powder for about 5 years with very good results. i shot 100 grains of loose powder in my apex with power belt bullets and had great groups. i purchased a knight disc extreme in 45 cal. and it shoots tighter groups with 4 30 grain cleanshot pellets than it does with t/7 loose or pyrodex loose both at 100 grains weighed charges. these pellets are from there first venture in the pelletized market that got them in trouble. however these pellets DO NOT shoot good in my 50 cal or my 54 cal however the loose cleanshot will in both of these guns. i believe there is to much space around the pellets in these two guns (lots of air) but fill up the 45 barrel good. as for cleanup it can be done with a garden hose. i pull the breach plug and hold it under faucet in kitchen sink and it will rinse clean without scrubbing. i love the stuff

30-06man · « **Reply #10 on:** December 05, 2007, 03:38:59 PM »

Sounds like I need to try this stuff out in my muzzle loader.

Horn-Harvester · « **Reply #11 on:** December 05, 2007, 06:18:32 PM »

Ive tested APP and JSG and it varies by over 600 fps over the chrony. This was using FF and FFF loose. The FFF shot better than the FF in my .50. I tried three different brands of 209 primers and different bullets from 250 - 300 grain with different sabots. APP is the best for clean up but accuracy suffers due to inconsistent ignition.

alsaqr · « **Reply #12 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:36:11 AM »

JSG likes a very tight fitting sabot. It is consistent if you really lean on the ramrod every time you load it. i use a 2" furniture knob on the end of my Encore ramrod when loading.

30-06man · « **Reply #13 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:56:06 AM »

I always used pyrodex until 777 came out. I used to have some goex but lord knows were it went to. So next summer Ill get out with some jsg and try it that is if I can get a good tight fitting sabot for my 45cal encore.

30-06man · « **Reply #14 on:** December 06, 2007, 02:57:34 AM »

Will the jsg work good in a Traditions Kentucky rifle? I have one of the kits now and I am going to try it in loose form in it.

alsaqr · « **Reply #15 on:** December 08, 2007, 04:46:12 AM »

"Will the jsg work good in a Traditions Kentucky rifle? I have one of the kits now and I am going to try it in loose form in it."

Not sure that JSG granular will work in a conventional muzzle loader: Do not know anyone who has tried it. For sure the pellets will not work. JSG pellets are hard to light.

30-06man · « **Reply #16 on:** December 08, 2007, 05:06:11 AM »

Ill try it as soon as I am done with it.

Lane · « **Reply #17 on:** January 05, 2008, 03:51:13 AM »

FWIW

I've used all the modern powders and good old Mother Black. IMHO the best all around powder right now is made by APP, it is:
Goex Pinnacle 3Fg loose powder.

Positive points:

It is nearly 100% non-corrosive to gun steel, pours/meters out well, no swabbing needed between shots --even after 60 rounds at the range, never sticks/seizes your breech plug, Virtually dust free/well screened for uniform granulation, no breech Crud Ring like T7 produces, plenty of power per grain--more than Pyrodex--less than T7, bullets need no lube at all. My loads and accuracy are great-1-2inches at 120yards. Cost effective, unlike Black Mag's $35 a pound--when and if you can find it

Cleans up faster and easier than any other powder, period!

Negative Points:

Can create a type of crud ring at the muzzle end of the rifle--makes loading the next round slightly difficult for the first inch--then slides home easy.

The preformed E-Z Load Sticks just suck, usually.

The 2Fg loose powder looks like fish tank gravel, however it can produce great groups if strictly measured or weighed out with a balance beam scale like a 502 RCBS Scale.

Some have reported the powder is hydroscopic(draws moisture out of the air) I just keep my powder caps well sealed, and I add additional SilicaGell/Dessicant packs to ALL my powder containers

Powder by Volume to actual Weight conversion for Goex Pinnacle:

100gV = 92gW Conversion Factor is .92gW

So if you need 70gVolume just do this:
70gV x .92gW = 64.4gW and I like to round up, so = 65gW

FFFg loose powder is the BEST

Hammerspur · « **Reply #18 on:** April 04, 2008, 05:35:02 AM »

Quote from: alsaqr on December 05, 2007, 11:05:38 AM

There is a citrus based powder called Black Mag 3. According to the NRA tests this is a very powerful powder. They averaged 2,004 fps with 100 grains of the stuff and a 250 grain SST bullet. i have never used Goex Pinnacle or Black Mag 3.

I have used BM 3 with very good results. I bought a quantity when it first appeared around 10 years ago produced by the originator's company "ARCO Powder Co." As clean or maybe even cleaner than smokeless.

Very minimal hygroscopicity... shot an unused load off at the end of a fruitless season, placed my rifle in the back of the closet with intention of cleaning the following day, then forgot about it for several months.

When I did remember I expected to find a horror, but NO. Same light gray ash residue as when first fired.

It is now being manufactured by MagKor ( http://www.magkor.com/index.html ) in partnership with MDM
( http://www.mdm-muzzleloaders.com/ ) but at present the entire supply is being used to make these gimmicks:
http://www.mdm-muzzleloaders.com/NewThunderCharge.html

Loose powder is supposed to be available later this Spring.

alsaqr · « **Reply #19 on:** May 12, 2008, 09:17:40 AM »

Thanks, Lane. After reading your report i was determined to try Pinnacle. Could not find any around here so it was ordered.
Been using JSG in my Encore since i bought it. JSG is an accurate and good powder if you use a tight fitting sabot. Killed a lot of hogs and a few deer with JSG and the 250 grain SST.

Tried Pinnacle FFG last week . Loaded my gun with 120 grains of Pinnacle FFG and a 240 grain XTP in the short green sabot: Primer is Winchester 209. After the gun was sighted in, i shot two three shot groups at 100 yards. One was 1" and the other a little less than 1.5". Will shoot that load again this week and then work up a load with the 250 grain SST.

120 grains of Pinnacle FFG has a little more recoil than 120 grains of JSG: About like 100 grains of 777. Pinnacle may be a little cleaner than JSG.

Also have a couple new cans of Pinnacle FFFG and cannot wait to try that.