85 Grain Partition on Deer?

[Brithunter]

Hmmmm:-

The 244 Remington was a flop and the 6mm Remington was never a hit like the 243 Winchester.  Of course any of these cartridges can be tailor loaded to the rifling twist rate.

  I wonder if the 6mm Remington had been offered in the Model 70 Winchester and the 243 in the Remington rifle of the time if things would still be the same today. Of course I will be decried for saying this but the styling of the Remington rifle of that period 788 was it? was nothing compared to the Model 70. I also wonder if the twist rates would really still be talked about if that was the case  Remington seems good as this confusion they also did it with the 280 or was it 7mm Rem Express?

   It's one thing we will never know now that's for sure 

[njanear]

Hmmmm:-

The 244 Remington was a flop and the 6mm Remington was never a hit like the 243 Winchester.  Of course any of these cartridges can be tailor loaded to the rifling twist rate.

  I wonder if the 6mm Remington had been offered in the Model 70 Winchester and the 243 in the Remington rifle of the time if things would still be the same today. Of course I will be decried for saying this but the styling of the Remington rifle of that period 788 was it? was nothing compared to the Model 70. I also wonder if the twist rates would really still be talked about if that was the case  Remington seems good as this confusion they also did it with the 280 or was it 7mm Rem Express?

   It's one thing we will never know now that's for sure 

You do know that the .244 came out in 1955 and the M788 wasn't introduced until 1967, right (and didn't get the 6mm until 1969)?    The .244 was first seen in the Model 722, which seems to have been a pretty nice rifle.

[yooper77]

The information below is from: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/Standarddata(Rifle)/243Cal(6.17mm)/6mm%20Remington%20pages%20207%20and%20208.pdf

Introduced by Remington in 1955 as the .244 Remington, this cartridge was chambered in the Model 722 bolt action and later in the Model 760 slide action rifles. The .244/
6mm Remington is based on the .257 Roberts case necked down to .24 caliber and was originally a wildcat cartridge credited to RCBS’s Fred Huntington.

When originally introduced, .244 Remington rifles were made with 12-inch twist barrels since Remington intended it to be only a varmint cartridge. This assumed, incorrectly, the shooting public would agree with them. Since the .243 Winchester would accurately shoot heavier bullets, it quickly became a legitimate deer cartridge and soon caused the demise of the ballistically superior .244 Remington.

In order to correct the situation, Remington renamed the cartridge and introduced new rifles with 9-inch twist barrels.

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the 6mm Remington is 65,000 P.S.I. This is nearly 10% higher than the pressure limit for the .243 Winchester. This fact, coupled with the increased case capacity of the 6mm Remington, allows greater flexibility for the handloader.

The information below is from: http://www.accuratepowder.com/data/PerCaliber2Guide/Rifle/Standarddata(Rifle)/284Cal(7.21mm)/280%20Remington%207mmExpress%20pages%20244%20and%20245.pdf

Originally introduced in 1957 to compete with the .270 Winchester, the .280 Remington is another derivative of the .30-06. It is very similar to the wildcat 7mm-06. The .280 is available in auto loading, pump action, and bolt action rifles.

After it failed to dislodge the popular .270 Winchester, the .280 was renamed “7mm Express.” Apparent confusion between it and the popular 7mm Remington Magnum caused the company to revert back to the original .280 Remington moniker.

When loaded to similar pressures, the .280 Remington duplicates or exceeds the performance of the .270 Winchester on both varmints and big game.  This is an excellent cartridge for the handloader, handling a wide variety of bullet weights with ease.

The SAAMI Maximum Average Pressure for the .280 Remington/7mm Express is now established as 60,000 P.S.I. and 50,000 C.U.P.


yooper77

I feel the 244 Remington/6mm Remington and the 243 Winchester cartridges are perfect, but to pick one over the other, I would choose the 243 Winchester without hesitation.

I never did understand the confusion with the any cartridge names.  How could anyone confuse the 7mm Express Remington with the 7mm Remington Magnum?

[coyotejoe]

I don't know about the 7mm Express/ 7mm mag, at least there would be no danger of actually firing the wrong round, the worst likely to happen is somebody ends up with a box of ammo which won't fit his rifle. But I have learned, much to my surprise, that a 7mm Weatherby Magnum cartridge will chamber and fire in a rifle marked for the 7mm Remington mag and I suspect that could be dangerous. We should all understand, and especially gun makers should understand, that not all hunters spend their leisure hours studying books and websites on firearms. I can easily see how Mr. Onceayear Hunter could walk into a gun shop or sporting goods section and say "give me a box of 7mm magnums" and the clerk doesn't know or doesn't thing to ask "which 7mm magnum".
 With so many different cartridges on the market I think gun makers should have the common sense to avoid giving a new cartridge a name very similar to some already existing round, especially if that already existing round is close enough to be fired in the wrong chamber.
I totally disagree with the premise that Remington envisioned the .244 as strictly a varmint round. They offered the 75 grain load for varmint and the 90 grain for deer right from the get go. It was the gun writers who damned the .244 by opining that the 100 grain bullet of the .243 would of course be better for deer because, after all, it is heavier. Never mind that those early 100 grain .243s were prone to expansion failure while the 90 grain .244 worked fine. Most seemed to just write off the .244 without having ever tried it.  Actually, for deer hunting, I've had fine results with the 87 grain Hornady SP in the .243 and see no reason to think an 85 grain partition should not be at least as good.

[yooper77]

Being considered a varmint cartridge or not, Remington did replace their 244 Remington cartridge with the 6mm Remington, which never really took off.  I use once fired free picked up range brass for my 243 Winchester.   My older chamber has a longer neck than most standard 243 Winchester, so I can custom make longer brass from 244/6mm Remington cases.

The 7mm Weatherby Magnum cartridge will not fit into a 7mm Remington Magnum chamber, it’s too long!

Of course I don't advise this, but the 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge will chamber and fire in a 7mm Weatherby Magnum chamber.  Once fired you will have a 7mm Weatherby Magnum shoulder with a short neck.

I know a guy that uses the cheaper 7mm Remington Magnum once fired cases to make his 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges, but the case is about .060" too short.  I make 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges out of 300 H&H Magnum and 300 Winchester Magnum cases.  Lots of case forming, trimming and neck turning, but cheaper and turns out the same in the end for me.

Now the horrific problem is I have seen a destroyed rifle along with the scope after someone fired a 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge in a 270 Weatherby Magnum chamber.  You see this cartridge is shorter and head spaces off the belt in the longer chamber, so the fatter .284 caliber bullet didn't go too far and the pressure found the path of least resistance back through the action and elsewhere.

The cartridge names are not the problem, but the fact is that some people aren't educated properly when it comes to the proper use, care and dangers of firearms.

As always, all my re-formed or new cases, I start with minimum load data and monitor pressure indicators as I work my way to an accurate load, all the while staying at or below maximum recommends loads per the manufactures.

yooper77

[ricciardelli]

I have been using the Sierra 85 grain HPBT bullet in both my .243 Winchester adn my 6MM Remington since the early 1960's.  It has worked extremely well on white tail, mule deer and antelope ... not to mention one elk.

[Brithunter]

Thank you for the correction on the Remington model rifles  I get lost with them after the Model 30 and don't know the others between until the Model 700 which I dislike.

 Me I cannot understand what is so magic about the 100 grain number but it seems it is because it's written in law in Scotland. For the hunting of Deer other than Roe deer a bullet of at least 100 grains weight and of minimum .240" cal is required.Now if we use correct English then in fact the 6mm and 243 are illegal because Claibre is described as diameter of bore and that means bore size not groove size and so as the bore is 0.236 or there abouts it's under the minimum. To tell the authorities this would only confuse them and cause problems so we ignore it  and let them believe they are right.

   I have read several versions of writers ideas about the introduction of the .244 rem and none have been quite the same and as I was too little to know about them then and living across the pond I have to gather the information as I can. Thanks again for the help.

[rifleman]

I might have to try one of these 80 something gr bullets in my 243. I currently have a 55 gr varmint load, and a 100 gr deer load with a different POI. The "one load for everything" would be a much easier situation all around. It would take some of the fun and challenge out of my reloading, but sometimes simpler is better.

Dave

[coyotejoe]

The 7mm Weatherby Magnum cartridge will not fit into a 7mm Remington Magnum chamber, it’s too long!
yooper77

 

Yooper77, a 7mm Weatherby Mag cartridge absolutely WILL chamber in a 7mm Rem Mag rifle. I was not guessing or theorizing here. Last hunting season a guy brought me a Savage rifle in 7mm Rem mag which was having extraction problems. He also brought a box of ammo with two rounds fired. It was Weatherby factory loads, 7mm Weatherby magnum. I didn't fire them but they did chamber and the bolt closed with no undue effort.
Apparently the rifle had withstood at least two rounds of the Weatherby ammo with no harm beyond the broken extractor. This fellow was a life long hunter, he just is not a gun buff. I agree it would take a fool to fire any sort of 7mm ammo in any sort of .257 rifle, the two don't even sound similar. However, when a fellow is shooting a rifle produced by Savage, chambered for the 7mm Rem Mag cartridge produced by Winchester or Federal why would he know that he can not use  a 7mm mag cartridge produced by Weatherby?
  I do think that was a stupid blunder on Remington's part. The Weatherby round was well established when Remington was just designing their round. All they needed to have done was to move the shoulder back .010-.015" and the Weatherby round could not be chambered. They also might have called it a ".284 Magnum" or anything which doesn't "sound" interchangeable.
 I once picked up some brass with split shoulders. It was headstamped ".303 Savage" and had apparently been fired in a .303 British rifle. I find that an understandable mistake also, although I don't know why they fired more than one round. I agree than nothing is fool proof if you just find the right fool, but gun and ammo makers should not be setting traps for the unwary. You don't have to be an automotive engineer to fill your gas tank, why should one have to be a ballistician to buy factory loaded ammo for their hunting rifle. As a gunsmith and lifelong hobbyist I can assure you that by far the most hunters are not really gun buffs. Hopefully they know enough to safely handle a firearm under normal circumstance. Hopefully they can get a rifle sighted in, perhaps with some help. Hopefully they may even clean their rifle occasionally and not do more harm than good. That is about the most you can expect from someone who is not really interested in guns for their own sake. It should not require any expertise to simply buy a box of ammo.

[rickt300]

My impression on the 6MM/243 issue is that the model 70 that the 243 was introduced in was a much nicer rifle than the 722. I had a Remington 740 semi-auto in 244, that would not shoot any 100 grain bullet and by the time I owned the rifle 90 grain factory loads were not available. I went out and killed deer with the 80 grain PSP Remington loaded for a long time and it worked perfectly.  When the M700 came out it was a much nicer rifle than any of it's predecessors and in it the 6MM Remington gained a pretty good folowing. The 788 rifle so chambered also sold a lot of rifles. 6MM Remington rifles are by no means rare. I have owned more rifles in 6MM than 243 but the cartridges themselves are not that different though the longer neck of the former is nice along with a bit smoother feeding in mauser actions.

[coyotejoe]

The M-70  was also a much more expensive rifle. My 1959 Stoger's Shooter's Bible lists the 722 Remington in .244 caliber at $95.25 while the Winchester in .243 went for $129.95, that is 36% more for the Winchester. But the real difference is not about Remington versus Winchester. All rifle makers jumped on the .243 bandwagon while the .244 remained strictly Remington's red headed stepchild. To some extent that may have been due to the .244's greater cartridge length being too much for some short actions like the Savage M-99 but mostly I believe it was gun writers bad mouthing the "lighter bullet" compared to the 100 grain .243. Once Remington changed the twist and renamed it 6mm it was way too late, everyone was already building .243s so why bother with the 6mm Remington. The .243 out-sells the 6mm Remington even in Remington rifles.

[rickt300]

You may just be right on the short action thing. Back then there were not many short action bolt rifles but there were a bunch of lever action rifles that were just right for the 243 along with Winchesters pretty model 100 semiauto. While Remington shoehorned the 6MM into it's short 700 and 788 these did put a bit of a squeeze on it. My favorite 243 was a Savage 99.

[yooper77]

I have loaded some 80 grain pistol bullets using IMR-4895 for some reduced 243 Wichester youth loads.  Kills deer perfectly everytime!

coyotejoe,

You have things backwards or the rifle you are talking about is some other custom chamber and not a 7mm Remington Magnum specs.  The rifle could also have a serious headspace problem or a screwed up re-chamber job from a shade tree gunsmith.  He needs a cast of the chamber to see what kind of cartridge he is dealing with.  I wouldn't fire that rifle until a properly trained gunsmith gives it a clean bill of health.  I also wouldn't be near the owner when he is anywhere close to a firearm.

The name of the cartridges isn’t a problem, people need to obtain proper education it’s that simple.  Ammo manufactures isn’t a problem either if the person uses the correct ammo made for the firearm intended for it, also so simple.

I never said someone fired 7mm Remington Magnum ammo in a 257 Weatherby Magnum rifle its not at all possible.  What I did say was “I know a guy that uses the cheaper 7mm Remington Magnum once fired cases to make his 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges, but the case is about .060" too short.  I make 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges out of 300 H&H Magnum and 300 Winchester Magnum cases.  Lots of case forming, trimming and neck turning, but cheaper and turns out the same in the end for me.”

I would never make the mistake and confuse the 303 Savage with the 303 British cartridges, it’s simple.  I cannot speculate on how anyone would however unless its ignorance.  303 Savage ammo uses .308 caliber bullets and the 303 British uses .311 caliber bullets, big difference!  I have made 303 Savage ammo from 303 British cases.

yooper77

[coyotejoe]

I have loaded some 80 grain pistol bullets using IMR-4895 for some reduced 243 Wichester youth loads.  Kills deer perfectly everytime!

coyotejoe,

You have things backwards or the rifle you are talking about is some other custom chamber and not a 7mm Remington Magnum specs.  The rifle could also have a serious headspace problem or a screwed up re-chamber job from a shade tree gunsmith.  He needs a cast of the chamber to see what kind of cartridge he is dealing with.  I wouldn't fire that rifle until a properly trained gunsmith gives it a clean bill of health.  I also wouldn't be near the owner when he is anywhere close to a firearm.

I never said someone fired 7mm Remington Magnum ammo in a 257 Weatherby Magnum rifle its not at all possible.  What I did say was “I know a guy that uses the cheaper 7mm Remington Magnum once fired cases to make his 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges, but the case is about .060" too short.  I make 257 Weatherby Magnum cartridges out of 300 H&H Magnum and 300 Winchester Magnum cases.  Lots of case forming, trimming and neck turning, but cheaper and turns out the same in the end for me.”

I would never make the mistake and confuse the 303 Savage with the 303 British cartridges, it’s simple.  I cannot speculate on how anyone would however unless its ignorance.  303 Savage ammo uses .308 caliber bullets and the 303 British uses .311 caliber bullets, big difference!  I have made 303 Savage ammo from 303 British cases.


yooper77

Now you are being downright insulting as well as xxxxxxx Since you weren't there, you can't possibably know what you are talking about! I had the rifle and the ammo in my hands, I read the chamber stamp on the rifle and the headstamp on the ammo! And I AM a gunsmith! I did a chamber cast and test fired the rifle with the proper 7mm Remington Mag ammo. And YES the 7mm Weatherby Magnum ammo DID chamber in that Savage rifle marked 7mm REMINGTON MAGNUM!!!!!
 And YES YOU DID SAY YOU HAD SEEN A RIFLE DESTROYED BY FIRING A 7MM MAG ROUND IN A .257 WEATHERBY RIFLE!
 Here is what you wrote!

  "Now the horrific problem is I have seen a destroyed rifle along with the scope after someone fired a 7mm Remington Magnum cartridge in a 270 Weatherby Magnum chamber.  You see this cartridge is shorter and head spaces off the belt in the longer chamber, so the fatter .284 caliber bullet didn't go too far and the pressure found the path of least resistance back through the action and elsewhere"

Now you are telling me I don't know what I'm talking about when you don't even know the tale you just told!!! As for your claim of having made .303 Savage ammo from .303 British brass, you must have had a lot of time on your hands. You must have turned the rims down .035", swaged the base down .018", set the shoulder back .372" and trimmed to length. But I'm not saying you don't know what you're talking about, for all I know you may indeed have gone to all that bother, I don't know because I WASN'T THERE!!!
My point is not to start an arguement here, I'm just saying "how is someone who is not especially into guns supposed to know that Remington and Weatherby are not just different brands of ammo but entirely different cartridges".

[stimpylu32]

THAT WILL BE ABOUT ENOUGH - BOTH OF YOU , If you can not be respectful in your comments  DON'T POST !!!

Stimpylu32