Would you convert?

[Brithunter]

Hi All,

      I have an old Parker-Hale 1100M African magnum rifle chambered for the 458 winchester cartridge. It's a magnum length Mauser 98 action with a magnum length magazine and floor plate I checked and it will happily accept a 375 H&H cartridge and it has occured to me that perhaps this is a waste of a magnum action really being chambered for a short magnum cartridge like the 458 Winchester.


     I have been wondering about re-chambering the rifle for a longer cartridge however it needs to be a case that I can get cases for even if it means re-forming. Now on this forum there is quite a bit about the 458 Lott and doing a little searching it seems that this is an easy conversion and even a worth while one that allows 458 Winchester still to be fired through the rifle.

     I had thought that perhaps the 450 Rigby might be more in keeping with the British build of the rifle but Norma who load the ammunition has, how shall we put it, a less than helpful improter here in the UK. CH4D list the dies for the Rigby cartridge so that option is open the cases of course could be made from 416 Rigby brass. Now Norma also load the 458 Lott but of course we have the same problem in dealing with a pretty useless importer however I see from a search that Hornady load the Lott but I am not sure if Hornady Ammunition is even imported into the UK. Getting hold of Hornady bullets is hard enough at times which is a shame as I am rather fond of Hornady bullets.

The P-H 1100M has two recoil cross bolts and a third lug on the barrel and is glassed bedded. the stock of reddish coloured walnut is also weighted with lead in the fore end and butt all done by Parker-Hale from the start and the rifle has a good stand iron express rear sight and and a hooded bead which is coloured red. Barrel is 24" long and currently the rifle has a Weaver Steel Lite 11 K1.5 scope on Weaver bases.

Given all this and bearing in mind that the rifle will probably shoot more cast bullets than jacketed due to our stupid rules one needs a special variation to buy expanding bullets and solids are expensive so it will be cast and even paper patched bullets which I have played with some in the 458.








     

[Graybeard]

Whatchagonnadowidit?

Is a trip to Africa in the plans? If so the .375 H&H makes much more sense for a sport hunter. The big .45s are really more appropriate for a guide's back up gun than for a sport hunter to tote.

If you're just gonna take it to the range and shoot then again the .375 would be easier on the shoulder. If ya just gotta have big and bad to say ya do and to see how it shoves you around then by all means go for the Lott.

Iffen it were me I'd trade it for something that didn't kick my eyeballs out each time I shot it so it would get some range time but then my shoulders both need surgery in the worst way and I'm trying to make them last longer than me so I don't have to have them cut on.

[gwindrider1]

If that rifle were mine, it would become my new .404 Jeffery!

[Brithunter]

Thanks guys however re-barreling is not a financially viable prospect. A new barrel would cost in the region of £325+ ($600US+) a re-chamber I can do myself in this case. Selling the rifle is one option but finding a good one is say 375 H&H is going to take time and could be hard as it needs to be of British make to fit in the collection. Presently it's just for range use and collection and unless my premium Bonds come up or I win the lottery Africa is a distant dream.

I did see a very nice P-H 1100M in 375 H&H a year or so ago but didn't have my 458 with me so could not even see about a deal in trade and that was at a show 200 miles away. Swapping a rifle means getting rid of one then getting a variation on the certificate (Licence) to get another not straight forward (even though it should be) and could take months depending on how the Police feel at the time 

[corbanzo]

Maybe I missed something... but how are you gonna turn a .458 barrel into a .375 barrel without rebarreling?

If I were you, I would take your money and put it into some good .458 loading equipment, you can make the .458 win mag sing.  Or take a look at hornadys magnum .458 winmag ammo, gets up to the ballistics of a medium .458 lott load. 

The win mag got a bad rap in the old days, that with modern loadings does not at all reflect that.  Lots and lots of power can be had in it.

[Brithunter]

Ahhhh corbanzo,

      Sorry if I confused you:-

    I have an old Parker-Hale 1100M African magnum rifle chambered for the 458 winchester cartridge. It's a magnum length Mauser 98 action with a magnum length magazine and floor plate I checked and it will happily accept a 375 H&H cartridge

The rifle is a .458 Win Mag bust has a full magnum length magazine:-

It's a magnum length Mauser 98 action with a magnum length magazine and floor plate I checked and it will happily accept a 375 H&H cartridge

As the 458 is a short magnum I was suprised that the 1100M had a full magnum length magazine, so having a 375 H&H cartridge laying around I tried it and of course being smaller it easily chambered but it fed through the magazine easily  .

   Meanwhile I have spoken to a gunsmith who has done work for me before and he happens to have a reamer for the 458 Lott  as I ran the idea past him from our disscussion it seems that he thinks that the 450 Rigby is the better cartridge. Doing some intenet searching I see that the diesa re available for both cartridges and the brass is also commercially made however I have to check if it's imported into the UK. Now so far this has all been over the phone as Lew is quite a drive from here so now we have to make arrangements in the next couple of months to go to his workshop with the rifle so he can inspect it and quote for the work required. The fly in the ointment of course is that the rifle will have to re-submitted for reproofing with the new chambering and that costs extra but is required by law.

[deltecs]

If you really wanted full magnum round for this rifle, go with the Lott.  The Rigby 450 will require a bolt face alteration to accomodate the larger head.  One can also use the .458 Win Mag rounds in the Lott chamber too.  So, if ammo is a bit hard to find, then one can still use the Win Mag rounds.  Also, using the Win Mag rounds for target practice is a bit easier on the shoulder, albeit not much. 

[LONGTOM]

I assume that the 375H&H was only for a reference to the fact that the action/magazine would accept magnum length cartridges.
Am I correct in this assumption?


LONGTOM

[Brithunter]

Longtom,

       Yes I used the 375 cartridge was used to check length and feeding. The Lott does sound the easiest to do. The Final decision will be taken after meeting with Lewis and with getting his advice.

[Mike Britton]

In my tore up logic what you will spend reinventing this rifle won't necessarily make a better rifle.
A great rifle is still great even if the magazine is too long for the cartridge. I'd be thrilled to own an 1100M in .458, and really wouldn't care about cartridge length.

[Brithunter]

Ahhhhh Mike you raise an excellent point  the 1100M is fairly collectable. I would have preferred one in a British chambering as it would fit in with the rest of the British theme of the collection but all I found at the time was 458 chambered rifles. In fact I have only seen two 1100M's in 375 H&Hand never a 404 Jeffries.

[86thecat]

I have a 458WM CZ550, the action and throat are long enough to load some bullets out to 3.60 inches. The Barnes 450 TSX even has a crimp groove there. I'm running full Lott velocity at that length with great accuracy, no pressure problems and no risk of losing accuracy if a reamer slips during conversion. The reamer drawings I have seen for the Win Mag show long throats so your rifle may be the same. Loading long works great for me in the WM cases and the only drawback I can see is being very careful your ammo never gets into a rifle with a short throat. A no gunsmith wildcat the 458WinMagXL (xtra long).

[Lloyd Smale]

the 458 has killed many many african animals. Probably more then the rest of them combined with the possible exception of the 375 h&h. If i had an old gun like that id just leave it alone and enjoy it and if i wanted something else id start saving my money. If you really want something else it would make more economic sense to sell it and buy a different rifle then it would to rebarrel your gun.

[S.B.]

I totally agree with Lloyd, in my experience, any custom work done will be money thrown into the wind(it's hard to recover any money spent on customizing guns). If your gun shoots well(accurate), and is reliable I'd leave it alone. A trade(amicable for both parties) is your only option to another caliber?

[Brithunter]

Thank you gentlemen for your thoughts and comments  unless I really have no other choice I do not sell my rifles. When I started out I did buy and sell to get where I wanted to be but now they tend to grow roots and stay  as for one thing they all fit into thier own niches in my little collection. Presently I have one rifle which might be sold but it's not the P-H1100M it's an old tatty BSA 1st pattern Monarch that I picked up dirt cheap $45 US several years ago. However two years ago I picked up a very nice 1st Patten Monarch in the same chambering which cost me about $180 US. They are 270 win chambered rifles and I have been considering having the first cheap one re-barreled with a BSA Barrel as John Knibbs has some in the white and being a long action I thought perhaps 7x64 Brenneke. Of course final decision will be determined by what he has. However I do know the whereabouts of a heavy BSA new barrel in 308  so perhaps a rechamber into a longer more powerful .30 cal cartridge?

However the likely hood of it being traded is still quite high unlike the P-H 1100M which it would take an exceptional trade to make that happen  The BSA could make way for a different model BSA or Parker-Hale. I have been looking at a P-H M81 Classic and I also am looking for a 1000 Std P-H and as yet I don't have any of the earlier Safari models. Was offered a Super safari in 308 Norma but it was just out of my price reach at the time and that was about 6 months ago so I doubt it's still for sale now  .

For now I think I will sort out those cast bullets for the 458 and laod a few up for a range trip next weekend. Might even do some paper patched ones as I have played with that idea in the past and could pick up where I left off. Hmmm will have to look up what powders I was using and see what I have in stock  .

[mcwoodduck]

In your case the easist thing is to make the rifle a 458 Lott.  You could still use the 458 Wins in it if you could not find any Lott brass or ammo.  think of it as 38 special and 357 mag.  if you have the mag you can shoot both.  It may make it easier to have your shels split between thumpers and loaded down plinking stuff.
Bye the way what did you end up doing?

[Brithunter]

Nothing yet as I have a P-H Midland 2100 in 308 to pick up first  to add to the collection and that's going to take a few weeks as I have to make arrangements to go and pick it up from North London and that's a 3-4 hour drive from here dependign on traffic. Further to complicate things over the weekend 26th-28th October it's the Trafalgar Meeting at Bisley with the Arms fair that accompanies it and I normally try to attend it and to honest with the price of petrol I cannot make the trip down twice is a short period of time.

The ony reason I have been able to afford the rifle is that I have sold my old Triumph Dolomite car, cannot afford to restore it and use it so I am selling it to my nephew to play with. It's a "77" 1500 HL with 43000 miles on the clock from new.

So it will be November before I can go over and see Lewis and discuss the way forward with the 458, yes it's a slow process as I also have to check if the change of chambering will require a variation on my licence  it should not as the calibre has not changed BUT the Local Police licensing idiots make up their own rules so i ahve to check with them  .

[Mike Britton]

Nothing yet as I have a P-H Midland 2100 in 308 to pick up first  to add to the collection and that's going to take a few weeks as I have to make arrangements to go and pick it up from North London and that's a 3-4 hour drive from here dependign on traffic. Further to complicate things over the weekend 26th-28th October it's the Trafalgar Meeting at Bisley with the Arms fair that accompanies it and I normally try to attend it and to honest with the price of petrol I cannot make the trip down twice is a short period of time.

The ony reason I have been able to afford the rifle is that I have sold my old Triumph Dolomite car, cannot afford to restore it and use it so I am selling it to my nephew to play with. It's a "77" 1500 HL with 43000 miles on the clock from new.

So it will be November before I can go over and see Lewis and discuss the way forward with the 458, yes it's a slow process as I also have to check if the change of chambering will require a variation on my licence  it should not as the calibre has not changed BUT the Local Police licensing idiots make up their own rules so i ahve to check with them  .

Lucas, the prince of darkness!!!!!

[mcwoodduck]

Wow,
I thought our gun laws in California were bad.  It doesn't matter what we do to the caliber it's the serial number that's yours and turnin g a 30-06 into a 25-06, 270, 338-06, 35 Wheelan, or any of the Mauser calibers does not matter.
Good luck with your project.

[Brithunter]

Nothing yet as I have a P-H Midland 2100 in 308 to pick up first  to add to the collection and that's going to take a few weeks as I have to make arrangements to go and pick it up from North London and that's a 3-4 hour drive from here dependign on traffic. Further to complicate things over the weekend 26th-28th October it's the Trafalgar Meeting at Bisley with the Arms fair that accompanies it and I normally try to attend it and to honest with the price of petrol I cannot make the trip down twice is a short period of time.

The ony reason I have been able to afford the rifle is that I have sold my old Triumph Dolomite car, cannot afford to restore it and use it so I am selling it to my nephew to play with. It's a "77" 1500 HL with 43000 miles on the clock from new.

So it will be November before I can go over and see Lewis and discuss the way forward with the 458, yes it's a slow process as I also have to check if the change of chambering will require a variation on my licence  it should not as the calibre has not changed BUT the Local Police licensing idiots make up their own rules so i ahve to check with them  .

Lucas, the prince of darkness!!!!!

Sorry that one slipped passed me  what has Lucas vechicle electrics got to do with this? I am assumign that's the reference to "The Prince of Darkness" which was used to describe their electrics especially on the motorcycles of the 1950's relible was not a true description of them however sayng that I cannot not honestly say that I ever broke down due to Lucas electrics and when I was mucking about with British motorcycles in the mid 1970's-late 1980's I normally swopped the headlight units for modern ones even wired a alertnator on a 57 BSA B31 to convert it to 12V from the 6V is arrived as  and it worked just fine.

Wow,
I thought our gun laws in California were bad.  It doesn't matter what we do to the caliber it's the serial number that's yours and turnin g a 30-06 into a 25-06, 270, 338-06, 35 Wheelan, or any of the Mauser calibers does not matter.
Good luck with your project.

Ahhhh the police cannot understand calibre, and it seems this is common on the internet forums too  calibre accordign to them is the cartridge. 243 Win is a calibre in their eyes but in reality it's a cartridge the calibre is 6mm or 0.243" a rifle chambered for the 308 Winchester cartidge is of course .30" calibre so bullets  of .30" calibre cna be used in any of the .30" calibres even those on the internet understand thsi but the police seem to have problems with it and where it says calibre on the licence insist on putting down the cartridges.

On our licence it specifies to type and amount of ammunition we can buy and hold. I have Four rifle of 6.5mm calibres in three different chamberings and as I pointed out if the licence was done properly the ammunition section would specify an amount of 6.5mm ammunition however it only mentions 6.5x55 so I cannot hold any ammunition for the 6.5c64MS or 6.5x53R despite the fact that I have some and had it already before these morons changed it all round  You think that is stupid? well I have Four BSA 270 Winchester chambered rifles yet am accordign to the Police only alloowed to shoot one fo them  I have repeatedly asked them why this is yet have never gotten a sensible answer  it seems that three are more dangerous than the other one?