Waking up to lubing...

[Awf Hand]

Okay, I have every question in the world with regards to cast bullet lubing.  I'm slowly awakening from a long period of darkness wherein the only lube in existence was liquid alox, and the only method was tumble lubing.  My eyes are not accustomed to the light yet, so be patient as I gain sight.  
Background:  Alox worked well for my prior apps, but is failing me now.  I bought a new SAECO Lubrisizer and the correct top-punch/sizer for my app. as well as a lube heater.  I bought one kind of lube. -Rooster Red HV and I'm using Hornady gas-checks on a SAECO 196gr 30 cal bullet.  So far, I have pushed this bullet to 1750fps, but I hope to go closer to 1900fps.
-I have a ton of questions.
Is this lube the best for this velocity range?

Do the lube grooves need to be completely full?

Near the bottom of the long nose on this bullet, there is a small, shallow groove.  Does that one get filled with lube too?

How hot do I need to get this lube in the tube before I can squish it through the lubrisizer the way it was meant to be?

Finally, does anyone besides Lyman make an "M" die that can slightly bell the case mouth, or should I be looking at using the mouth  expander from my 32H&R or something similar?

Anything other questions I should be asking?  Other lubes or products I might want?

Ingots full of thanks,

Dean

[Shootingamigo]

Hello, The lube you are using is fine for your application. The melt point of this lube is 220 degrees. I would heat for 10 minutes and see how easily the handle turns and how it fills the lube groove. The grooves should be completely filled. Turn handle til there is pretty good deal of resistance and then run a bullet thru to see if there is enough pressure and grooves are filled. When you do this rub a little lube on the bullet to ease it thru for the first time. I am assuming you are using a Saeco 196 grain mold. The groove you refer to is a crimp groove and no lube is necessary there. Let me know how this bullet is for you I have been thinking about getting one of these molds.

                                    Shootingamigo

[bfoster]

Depending on the alloy you're using you may experience compression failure prior to lube troubles. Alox lubes are fine in this application. In general, there is often more trouble produced by using too much alox lube than too little, though this bullet design is much better than many in this respect.  (Loverin designed bullets often perform much better with only some of the grooves filled once the optimum alloy is ascertained).

Bob

[Awf Hand]

Shooting Amigo,

-Yes, you are correct.  This is a SAECO 196gr bullet.  Initial results have been tolerable.  With the Alox, I have been able to keep groups under 2.5" consistently -I won't say "all day long", because I've never shot it all day.  What I do the rest of the day is clean lead out of the last 6-8" of bbl.  Behind this final 6-8", the bore stays pretty clean.  This has a look of lube failure to me.  Hence the upgrade to a different lube system.
At 10 minutes of heating time the heater is barely warm.  It took me nearly 30 minutes before I was able to (with lots of force) push the Rooster Red through.

The alloy is (percentages) 92Pb-6Sb-2Sn.
The rifle is a Savage 11G with a 6-24x scope.  

I've pushed velocities high enough (failed my lube badly enough) to form a lead ring just outside the muzzle.  The bore took awhile to clean out.

[bfoster]

Awf,

The  lead deposited toward the end of the barrel does indicate a lube problem. If you're currently getting the lube applied right (despite your troubles with the lubrisizer) you'll need to try one of three things.

1. Change to another lubricant. A lot of shooters have found that the softer, stickier lubes do a bit better job under adverse conditions. This doesn't mean to change from an 50% Alox 2138F/50% beeswax type lubricant. There are beeswaxes and there are beeswaxes. Some of the lubricants use refined beeswax, some use unrefined beeswax. Generally, the unrefined product is stickier.

2. Your alloy is marginal for this application, IMO. You might want to try hardening this if you haven't done so, or simply switching to something harder, like linotype.

3. You might critically examine your barrel. A borescope is nice, but you can tell an awful lot by simply pushing a tight fitting patch through a clean bore. Does the patch move easily once it has started? Are there any rough or unevem feeling places in the bore? Using a magnifying glass, does the surface of the patch look roughed up once it has emerged from the bore? Lastly are you sure that you've gotten all of the lead removed from the bore. The slightest bit is an invitation to major leading at the next shooting session.

Lastly, sometimes the crude expedient of another mould does work out. One of my favorites for troublesome 30 calibre rifles is the old Lyman # 311467, an obsolete, but not difficult to find item. 180 grains, lots of lube grooves. You start with lube in all the grooves, then start decreasing the number of grooves filled. When you stop finding lube on the muzzle of your rifle you know that you've reached the minimum amount. If the amount is just a bit more than the bullet that has been giving you trouble then a harder alloy will likely fix the problem. If the amount needed is greatly more than available with a troublesome bullet then the issue probably isn't primarily lube related.

regards,

Bob

[Awf Hand]

The leading probs I've had were with the Alox dribble-n-shake lube.  My above questions were derived from my first lubing session (last night) with a mechanical luber.  I hope to have range results within the next few weeks, but with a wifey vacation this week spilling into the next and the Schuetzenfest at Raton absorbing another, I'm not sure when I'll get to the range to try these 308 pills.  The bore has cleaned up pretty well, as I've got JB Bore paste coming out of my ears, but now I'm running low on Kroil.

My Lyman book says that with the Alox and beeswax lubes I should be able to reach 3000fps. -Wow, How do I do that!!??  I wonder if my little Lyman 113gr spitzers would push that high..?  Lot's of lube groves...mmmm...
There I go, thinking again.

[bfoster]

Well, the Lyman folks aren't exaggerating, but let's add a qualifier.

It's much easier to attain over well 3000 fps with one of the 22 cal bullets (like # 225438) than it is with any 30 cal bullet. With everything correct, I believe that the best 30 cal bullet designs have a practical ceiling of about 2700 fps. If you're willing to settle for 20+ shots before a major cleaning is needed, 2900 fps is attainable.

The problem is that the structural strength of the larger calibre bullet is in part a function of its length (and to a much lesser degree, its diameter). The gas check does indeed provide some support, but in the end the compressive strength of the harder alloys like linotype is roughly 19,000 psi. You'll see compression mode failure in the larger bore bullets as damage to the nose caused by the mass of the rear of the bullet moving before inertia allows the nose to move. Thus the bullet is damaged before the nose even starts to move.

Bob

[Tom W.]

RCBS makes a neck expander die. I have one in.309 to more easily load cast for my 30/30 . The label on the box saysP/N:39819. I found it on their website, but ordered it through Midway. It works great, once it's set up.
 :lol:

[HL]

Best Lube I found for higher velocities is LBT Blue lube. Apache Blue is said to be the same, but I have not tried it. I have not had any leading problems with LBT lube.

[Awf Hand]

Bama Boy,
Are you loading gas checked bullets in the 30-30 or are they flat-based cast?

Loading 30-30 with lead is something I will do eventually.  What are some sample loads you've used?  

I'd be loading for a Winchester 94.

[Billy Marr]

We willsay you are appling lube correct it sounds like you are.
What you describe at the end of your barrel sounds like lube failure. I have used Rooster Red before and this is typical. What you may want to do is mix it with say my lube or felix lube. Why you ask? Becuase both of these lubes work on the principe that they coat the bore so lead does not adhere and that they lubricate. It is great that a lube has a high melt point but what use is it if it will not coat. I have recovered bullets at 200 meters with all the comercial lube left in them. this was with alll the big brands. The target doesnt care if the lube was still on the bullet but my barrel does. By the way I routenly shoot 165gr 30 cals at 2400-2600fps no leading.

[Doctor Sam]

Bfoster: I am glad you defined compression mode failure.  My question is how do you determine if this occurs?  Something must happen to alert you that this is going on.  Poor accuracy, keyholeing?

I can see this happening with my new 6.5 bullet that is 185 grains and long.  Have not shot them in my Swede yet so please tell me what to look for.  A great deal of this bullet will be sticking below the neck of the case it appears, even seated to the lands.  Perhaps this should not be seated to touch and would be better with a slight "jump".

Please give me the benefit of your experience.  Many thanks.
Doctor Sam

[Leftoverdj]

Doc,  I'm shooting the 170 grain 6.5 Oldfeller. There are a lot of old posts on this forum that a search will bring up for you, but the short of it is that the very long thin bullets go snakey when you push them very hard. The bullets actually bend and you get keyholes and groups best measured in yards.

The limit on the Oldfeller is around 1600 fps. It would be even lower with a 185 grain 6.5.

I must admit that the Oldfeller shoots very well indeed within its limits.

[Doctor Sam]

Hey DJ.  Thanks for the info.  I also have Oldfellers bullet and have not weighted it.  It was marked 185gr so that is where my wrong info comes from.
He has suggested 11.5 gr of Unique as a starting load.  I will search the forum for additional loads but would appreciate hearing from you about your success with this bullet.  My email is docsama@cox-internet.com.  That also applies to any of you shooting this combination.
I installed a set of Mojo sights on my M38 and am looking forward to seeing how they work.
Thanks again.
Doctor Sam

[bfoster]

Doctor Sam,

You'll see a decrease in accuracy coupled with an increase in fouling when this happens.

Bullets having compression mode failure recovered after being fired into a snowbank exhibit a band at some distance back from the nose that has a roughened appearance that can be seen with the naked eye. Examination at low magnification (a 7X Hastings triplet is adequate) reveals a network of fine crinkles.

Upon ignition the case expands until stopped by the front section of the chamber. This happens before the bullet starts to move. The base of the bullet moves prior to the nose, a band some distance (depending on the bullet geometry) back from the nose is swaged to (at least partially) fill the available space, then the bullet moves forward and is swaged to fit the barrel.

Bob

[jhalcott]

please don't think I am flaming any body,BUT...
  the use of cast bullets puts certain limits on the shooting. you CAN NOT expect magnum velocities and benchrest accuracy from cast! I have shot 30-06 loads at near 3000 fps,45-70's to 2200+.These are not normal hunting loads and require special alloys and lubes. You have to have an above normal barrel also. Cast bullets at moderate speed and of the weight required for the game will and HAVE taken every animal on the planet.IT was fun and frustrating to work up to the velocities mentioned. Many times the results were not repeatable for some reason. Good hunting load data is readily available.
   Please don't try to hunt with some of these trick loads, a linotype 30 caliber bullet is almost like shooting fmj's at a deer. The result is a clean pass thru and minimal internal damage.The reason the larger hardcast slugs work so well is THEY ARE LARGER! A .44 is as big as most .30 cal. after the 30 expands.
   Sorry for the rant, must be the heat!  jh :wink: