vetterly/ vitale

[GRIMJIM]

Can anyone tell me what caliber this rifle is? Model number? I think it's a 1871. It's dated 1880 and has still has most of the original finish on it. It's very solid and I would like to shoot it if I can find the ammo. I know the ammo is obsolete but there may be some aomewhere.

[LHitchcox]

The rifle is .41 Swiss, which is a rimfire. I do not know of any ammo source. My wife's uncle had a relic in this rifle that I researched for him a few years ago.

Leon

[Oldtimer]

I did a little online research a few months ago on the round and the only ones I could find were collector's items at $14 per round.  There were both centerfire and rimfire versions and I understand some rifles had firing pins that would fire both.  Even if your rifle is a wallhanger, it is a good looking one. 

[DonT]

Not to pick but I believe your rifle is an Italian Vetterli-Vitali.  Here is a link to information on the rifle
 http://www.militaryrifles.com/Italy/ItalVetVitali.htm

It "appears" to have been prior to when these were converted to 6.5 Carcano (I have 2 of those) and even those that have should be shot only with reduced loads and with great caution.  These rifles we designed to use black powder loads and the use of modern powders has the potential for turning them into something akin to a hand grenade. 

If you have any other questions let me know.   

DonT

[GRIMJIM]

Thanks for the link. I tried to post this once and it disappeared. I must have forgotten to put in some info on the second try. Yes it is a vetterly/vitali dated 1880 model 1870/87. Kind of disappointed I can't get ammo for it. Oh well it still looks good in the collection.

[GRIMJIM]

You can get boxer primed brass here.


http://www.buffaloarms.com/browse.cfm/4,20.html

[GRIMJIM]

specs.

                                                     M1867                                                    M1867-71/78
Cartridge                                        10.4x38 Rimfire                                        10.4x38Rimfire
Case Length                                    1.5"                                                       1.5"
Rim Diameter                                   .622"                                                      .622"
Head Diameter                                .539"                                                       .527"
Neck Diameter                                .444"                                                       .45:
Bullet                                            313gr Round nose Lead                              312gr Paper-Patched Lead
Bullet Diameter                               .425"                                                       .419"
Bullet Length                                 1.02"                                                        .996"
Powder Measure                             57-58.5gr Blackpowder                               19.3-22.4 P.C.89
Muzzle Velocity                               1427 fps                                                   1427 fps
Maximum Chamber pressure              ~20,000psi                                               ~20,000psi

[GRIMJIM]

A good read.


http://www.swissrifles.com/vetterli/article/

[DonT]

Grimjim,

the cases you posted the link for are Swiss Vetterli cases which are different than the Italian Vetterli-Vitali cases you probably need.  The Italian cases are listed next to the swiss cases.

Your rifle, I believe, was originally built as a single shot then in or about 1886 these were converted to repeaters using the Vitali magazine conversion.  Hence Vetterli-Vitali.  Then in about 1916 a lot of these were converted by sleeving the barrels to 6.5 Carcano and the magazine was again replaced with one that looks similar to the one of the Italian Carcano Rifles. 

Although your rifle is a close cousin to the Swiss Vertterli it is NOT the same rifle nor does it use the same ammunition. I have both Swiss and Italian Vetterli rifles as well as one Swiss Carbine.

Enjoy the rifle.
DonT

[GRIMJIM]

This one has not been converted to carcano so again I guess I'm outa luck.

[Victor3]

This one has not been converted to carcano so again I guess I'm outa luck.

 Not out of luck just yet - I have a book on cartridge conversions somewhere (Dang if I can remember the name of the book or where it is though) that details how to convert this rifle to a common centerfire cartridge without changing the barrel. Some minor machining is required to modify the bolt face and make a new firing pin though.

 You might post a question on cruffler. One of the guys there would probably know...

[GRIMJIM]

I think I would rather fuind a way of manufacturing the ammo. Reworking this old gun just strikes me wrong.

[DonT]

Grimjim,

Being an ITALIAN VETTERLI VITALI and not a Swiss Vetterli would indicate it is still in the 10.4X47R chambering but it would be best to take a chamber cast first to make sure.

Then if it is all is not lost.  Loading dies, although expensive, are available from C&H at a cost (as per their website) of $109.00 + Shipping.  I have gotten dies for oddball calipes in the past and they are nice dies.

I believe the bullet is a "healed" bullet cast with a .410 base that goes into the case.  The bullet base expands to .429 or .430 (bore diameter) to grab the rifling when it is fired.  If you try to use a .429 bullet it will expand the case so much it will not go into the the throat of the rifle (you will not be able to chamber it).  I beleive you can have lee custom make you a bullet mold like this, there may be  others custome making these molds also.  You will need to cast the bullets from relatively soft lead or they will not expand to fill the rifling and you will get leading and poor accuracy.

The brass can be made, again as I remember, out of .348 Winchester brass. 

The above is probably not for someone just starting out in reloading as "making brass" from another caliber can be challenging.  Buffalo arms does sell 10.4X47R Italian Vertterli brass for about $2.50 a round.  So you can forgo making brass. They also offer a .41 Colt .410 healed bulled that "may" work in the Italian Vetterli , it would be worth a try I guess.  They are about $15/100.

One final thought, if you would like something that you don't need to spend an arm and a leg on for loading dies drop me a note.  I might be willing to swap you one of my Italian Vetterli's in 6.5 Carcano for the the one you have.  You would still need to load for it as I would NOT shoot modern/jacketed in it, but you can get dies from Lee for about $30.00 and brass is fairly readily available.  Just a thought...

Take care...
DonT

[GRIMJIM]

I don't really want to trade it off, thanks anyway. I kind of like getting guns in the original calibers. I recently got an enfeild in 303 finally, had one rechambered in 308 for a while. That information is very helpful though, thanks.