Test your eyes: Is this really a 17th C. model, a repro, or are major parts new

[cannonmn]

Unfortunately there's no indication of the size of this model.  I'm guessing the whole thing is 16-24 inches long.    I see they have the barrel highly varnished or waxed or something.  I looked for the steel chaplets you'd need to have in a barrel made in that timeframe, the "crispness" or lack thereof in the casting details, signs of age in the wood, matching the surface appearance of various wood parts etc.

http://www.peterfiner.com/InternalMain.asp

Update:  Sorry there's no way to direct link to it, so as mentioned by others, go to "Catalog" then "Artillery" then click on pic in upper left.

[Ex 49'er]

Uh, cannonmn, sir, there is no cannon pictured here. The link is for the main page, only.

[Evil Dog]

Uh, cannonmn, sir, there is no cannon pictured here. The link is for the main page, only.

Click on "Catalog" and then on "Artillery"

[KABAR2]

That's a tough one, the minds eye want's to say its good, but with what ever finish they have put on it I don't know, construction details look period, but this is one of those gut things, I would want to see it in person to make that final determination.

Wouldn't mind having the breech loader they have listed,  just don't want to sell a kidney to get it!

There was an auction last month with a 18th C Coehorn mortar the owner said it came from the Ames sword company (he found it in the factory,  it had a "GR" crest and was one an odd oak mount, wood handles at each end like a litter, the castings on the rims, the GR the shell for the powder were very crude, although it had some age, it didn't feel right, I think this one was made much latter than the 18th C. also the "original" was held together with old hex nuts, another sign it had to be much latter.

[GGaskill]

Is this what you are asking about?  1694 French 12 pounder model

[cannonmn]

Yes that's the one.

[dan610324]

thats a tricky question , but my first impression is WOW WOW

but when I enlarge the pictures untill they start looking like squares Im not so sure anymore for some parts .
barrel is probably an original , or an extremely well made copy. if its an copy it would probably pass as an original at most museums around the world . my guts tell me the barrel is original , but its difficult to say without seeing it in real life .

hopefully it was an long time ago , but some time they seem to have used bees wax or some kind of clear cote on the barrel ,
cant say if its wax or clear cote , both of them have an yellowish tone when they are 150 years old . wax already when its newly made , but old clear cote got it when getting old . sorry if Im not use the correct word , but I hope you understand what I mean when saying clear cote , my english skills aint good enough sometimes .

when we come to the carriage it looks original at an first look , main body , the two long paralell boards are ok and all fittings of steel .
but when it comes to the axle and wheels Im not sure , my guess is that axle tree and wheels have been "new" made some 150 years ago or so , they seem to be in to good condition to be well over 300 years old . and its absolutely to much paint left on it . it doesnt fit together with the rest of the carriage in condition .

the wheels or tires or what you call it , the outer steel parts on the wheel . they look original to me when only looking at the photos .
but the bands crossing and holding the tire in place have an completely different surface structor , seems to be in an much better shape then the rest of the steel parts , same for some of the reinforcement  rings to the wheel centers .

I would say that most of it is original , except for the wood in axle and wheels , and some of the steel parts .
but nothing is any newly made fake , the rebuild of the carriage was probably made early to mid 1800 as it was very popular to have antique weapons then at castles and mansions , same as with the knights armours , they was commonly produced then as the originals was to few , many of them are today sold as originals .

over all its an nice cannon

but this is just my thinkings and believes , hope there are more comments at this topic .
if any one have completely other ideas I hope to hear them , how else to learn anything .
Im not any cannon expert , I just use common sense when judging this cannon .

COME ON FOLKS , LETS HAVE SOME COMMENTS .

[dan610324]

now I study the pictures more , and my feelings just get stronger .

look at the picture taken from behind , enlarge it untill you came out of focus and then go back .

when you look at the outer reinforcement rings I would say that you almost clearly can see the hits from the hammer when produced,
then looking at other parts , there is no similarity in surface structor .

same when looking at other pictures  of the crossing steel bands holding the tire, but only when you look at the sides of them , then you see very fine surface , no rust pits , those rust pits you find on all other steel things .

its just not the same surface , that tells me that they most probably not are produced at the same time , but what is original ??
maybe its the result of an repair made during its service time .
who can tell  ??  whats original and whats not ??
is it original if its made during its service time ?? 
or is it just original if its the same parts as when they was put together the first time ??
or is it an repair made long after they stop using it ??
lets say its an repair that was made 1850 - 1860 by an collector , or if the repair is done 1760 during its service time .
is there any difference in value then ??

if so who decide that ??
I would say that this is an extremely rare cannon in an extremely rare condition .
theres no problem to find barrels , but how often do you find that old carriages ??
I would say that the carriage is half the value of the asked price .

[cannonmn]

Dan, I had the same thoughts on the carriage, newish axle and wheels, as they don't match the carriage chassis.   I also agree on differences in the iron parts.

Having seen many old bronze model barrels, I don't like that one.  The detail is not very good.  The designs are "fuzzy" and blurred.  The barrel, if a quality one, would be made like a big one and the cast-in designs chased with steel tools after casting to make them stand out sharply.  This barrel shows casting only and no chasing, and the casting is lacking in good detail since you cannot clearly read all the words.  There's even a burr left on the vent.

What will tell if it is really old or not is the presence of steel chaplets in the breech area, real models were cast the same way the big ones were.  I can't see any chaplets in this model, but you would have to go over it with a magnet since sometimes a founder would cover them with bronze plugs.  You should be able to see those too however.

During the Victorian era, all kinds of medieval and later weapons were reproduced for the noveau riche to display in their mansions, you know, the suits of armor, shields, swords, and yes, bronze cannons.  The "old repro" cannons took many shortcuts, and that's how you tell them (no chaplets, etc.).  Also often they had exaggerated features, like long skinny trunnions that would never work for shootingl, and fantasy shapes that real cannon founders never used.  They often have gaudy, elaborate designs all over the barrel.  Beware.

[cannonmn]

Here's a very old Dutch cannon barrel model, has about a 3/4 inch bore, is about 14 inches long.  If you look closely you can see the chaplets, or where they come out anyway.  I have no doubt this one was made the same year it is marked.

http://s17.photobucket.com/albums/b62/cannonmn/myartillery/myartillery2/?action=view&current=5b193f27.pbw

[dan610324]

hope this will not make you disapointed now john ,
but in fact I have seen swedish 3 pounders without steel chaplets for the core , they was produced early 1600 , maybe they used tiny bronze chaplets instead or if they cast them solid as it was so small calibers . but this is an early 12 pounder and should definitely have chaplets .

when it comes to the shape of the decorations Im not that sure , your model cannon could have a lot of effort put into the manufacturing as it probably should be used as  an scale sample for an potential buyer , the government or an private company such as voc for example .

when it came to war production guns they probably didnt have the time for such detailing , I dont know , just my ideas . many guns are very well produced , and some not .

as an example I can mention the royal war ship VASA , one of the 3 guns found there still had an ceramic layer from the casting mold stick to it when it was found and still have , 382 years after production , do you still think they put that much effort to the details in all war time guns ??
well Im not so sure of that .

but as usual , just my thoughts and ideas   

just as much of topic as it possible could be , could you John or anyone else help me with some info about russian jewelries ??
I got an extreme sample of high quality russian filigree work , its an crown . by its design with an crown on the upper part of the front piece it could and probably would have been used by an member of the tsar family , or as an gift from them . maybe for an marriage .

any help would do , info or name and addresses to people who could know anything about such an item .
now I succed to crop it , doesnt know how to shrink it   

[cannonmn]

Dan, put yr jewelry question here:

http://forums.ebay.com/db1/forum.jspa?forumID=32&anticache=1213145821876

You have to be an ebay member to post but it is free.  They will need pictures no larger than 640x480, so shrink them first.  Free photobucket lets you edit pictures after you upload them if you can't do it first.

They will want to see the touchmarks on the metal and a picture of the whole item.

[seacoastartillery]

      You fellows have presented a lot of good information here.  The only things I can add are that the cracks in the left wheel wood under the iron tire and the large one in the left side of the split trail seem to indicate legitimate age, but I learned in my 20s that any good furniture reconstruction artist who works for an auction house can fix a two or three hundred year old original so that even an expert cannot tell upon visual inspection that the item has been 'fixed'.  The big clue to to indicate that the cannon carriage has not been 'FAKED' is the simple fact that the stain has not been added to the newer looking parts.  I have viewed very few of these ancient field artillery pieces so I offer these comments NOT as expert opinion, but simply as observations.  Very interesting piece!

Regards,

Tracy

[cannonmn]

The big clue to to indicate that the cannon carriage has not been 'FAKED' is the simple fact that the stain has not been added to the newer looking parts.

Thanks but ya lost me, is there a "not" that should not be in that sentence?  I think you mean that the body of the carriage is a very different color and gloss level than the axle and wheels, thus a mismatch, correct?

[seacoastartillery]

     Yes, that's what I meant.

Tracy

[dan610324]

sorry John , I made an terrible mistake 

Ive been to busy to study the pictures until now ,
but now when I read the description at the dealers website and your question carefully I realise its an miniature 
that maybe explain my somewhat cryptically mumble about large guns and models .

SORRY