Patch and Ball in 1:48 twist Barrel

[Stuart C.]

Hi,
I needs some info from the experienced folks here.
Shooting my hawken 50 cal .490 ball, .015 patch, FF powder. I'm trying to work up a hunting load; trying to get as much velocity AND accuracy that I can.

I started at 60 grains. I had nice groups on up through ~80 grains.  I went to 90 and 95.  At that point I got severe flyers. I'm not talking a few inches, I'm talking approx 10 in. away from the bull high and left.   Funny thing was the flyers were actually grouped together.

A couple questions:

- Have I determined that the patched ball in this particular barrel is only accurate up to ~80 grains because of the 1:48 twist?

- Is 80 gr enough for a hunting load inside 100 yds? (I'd like to stick with the round ball)

- Would a conical perform better at a higher vel?

What do you think?

Thanks!

[flintlock]

80grs in a .50 is certainly enough to take whitetails cleanly out to about 100 yards...If that's what your gun groups best with, stick with it...

A couple of suggestions...What do your patches look like after the shot??? It's important that they don't burn through as that is what imparts the spin on the ball...Once you get over 80grs your patches may be burning through...If you want to shoot higher charges you might need either, better parches, thicker patches, a better lube or something between the powder and patch to help keep the patch intact...Items used have been , hornets nesting, another lubed patch on top of the powder or a lubed felt wad...

I used to shoot as much as 120grs in my .54...Through the years I went down in charge and now have settled on 80grs of Goex FFF, it shoot flat out to 100 yards and delivers plenty of power for deer...At one time I went through all sorts of experiments with patching, lubes and wads between the powder and ball to help protect the patching...

I finally settled on a .018 patch made from pillow ticking from WalMart and a homemade lube of bees wax, caster oil and Murphy's Oil soap...My gun still burns through patches lubed with Bore Butter or commercial pre lubed patches...It is trial and error, like hand loading...

If you want more info on making your own lube go to www.muzzleloadingforum.com   Look in Members Resources and it tells you how to make the above lube...If I remember correctly, it's 2 parts bees wax, 8 parts Caster oil and one part Murphy's Oil soap...It was developed by one of the members and it is good stuff...For about 25 years I used SnoSeal, that works good as well...

The nice thing about making your own lube is that you can vary the ingredients for your climate...If you want it thicker and harder, reduce the caster oil, if you want it thinner, increase the caster oil...

What "fixed" my gun was getting away from store bought, pre lubed patches, they just were not as tough as buying your own cotton pillow ticking and lubing yourself...I believe that the lube in the store bought ones break down the cotton fibers after a while as when I use the bought pillow ticking and lube with SnoSeal, my patches still look good...

I guess what I'm saying is you are real close to having a good load, I would now work with different materials for patches and different lubes...Through the years I have heard of guys using olive oil, Balistal, crisco, SnoSeal, vasoline, deer and bear tallow and even axle grease to lube their patching...Some of the guys over there also use 40 drill cotton cloth from JoAnnes fabrics as their patching, you just need to experiment and find what works best...

Don't hesitate to try some of the thicker (0.18) patching because you are currently using a .015 patch...Once you start the ball with a short starter the lead ball conforms to the bore so it will load about as easily as the .015 patched ball....If you get good groups in a clean barrel with the thicker patch, you will probably be able to load the second ball with a .015 patch with a dirty bore and have a good accurate 2nd shot...That's how mine does so you might want to try that as well...Good Luck...

[captchee]

 I would agree with flintlock here .
 80 grains of 2FF is still delivering at 100 yards roughly  378 ft lbs .  even going as high as 120 grains is only going to yield you another  60 more ftlbs .
IMO  that amount is at the very bottom of any acceptable  gain when compared to  using  40 more grains of powder .

 Now this will raise your MV and   muzzle energy . It will also look sweet through a chronograph. But remember what your reading through that is  the velocity and energy at the muzzle . It really means diddle unless you use it to figure out what your load and projectile is doing down range  .
 What you want is accuracy  so  settle with a load that is  as heavy as you can go  and still keep accuracy .

 Now with the 1 in 48 . I have found through the years that some barrels  with this twist will start to throw balls  at higher charges. Now this is dependant on the barrel and what type of rifling it has ..
 Past that I really cant add a whole lot to what flintlock has already said . There are a lot of different patch lubes out there .  You have to find the one that works best for you .
Past that  and something Flintlock also touched on .

DON’T fall for the modern idea that you need  a lot of powder , high velocities  to  have a good sound hunting load . Simply put , you don’t . 80 grains is acceptable . I have personally taken more then a few  deer and elk with this charge . While I prefer  a 54  for this 80 grains is all I used  but for a conical which takes 110 grains to get my accuracy  in my slow twist barrel .
don’t forget to read your patches , especially concerning these fliers. They will tell the tail of why

[Trapper-Jack]

I agree with Flintlock that 80 grains is enough to put down a deer.  I load 80-85 grains of FF or Pyrodex RS and in most cases it will shoot through a mule deer side to side.  
My guess is that at 80 grains in a faster twist barrel the patch/ball is stripping from the rifling.  Maybe with a thicker patch and tighter fit you may get a little more velosity but for deer hunting I don't think it's enough to worry about.  A shot that is a little slower and on target is way better than a fast wild shot. 

The other guys have already touched on the lube.  My favorites are for Black Powder is a 50/50 solution of alcohol/Murphys Oil Soap combination and for Pyrodex I like pure olive oil.

[Stuart C.]

Thanks for all the info.

I actually went back last night after work to retrieve some patches.  I'm pretty sure the ones I found were 'mine' and they all looked good ie. not burnt through.  Wed night I'll look at them after ea shot.

I will try walmart tonight.  Are there different types of pillow ticking there that I will need to choose from? I should wash and dry this first to get the loft up and then mic it, correct?  I have a good dial caliper, not digital.

I'm just a bit concerned with the accuracy to energy trade off with this 1:48 twist.  I just got off the phone with TC (Kathy I think) and she recommends buying a 1:66 barrel from a vendor of theirs for $185 dollars.   TC sells the 1:48 to shoot the round ball (and maxiball)! Why THEN tell me I need to buy a new barrel.

If I have to keep the loads down to less than 75 grains for accuracy, that's basically the bare minimum foot pounds of energy to humanely take deer sized game at 50 yds  (about 500 fpe), right?

Thanks again for the info.  Off to walmart we go.

[flintlock]

Walmart should have 2 types of pillow ticking, just make sure it is 100% cotton as any poly blend will burn through...

Red is for Democrats and Blue is for Republicans...

I don't own a mike, I have heard it is about .018 and comparing to my .015 and .020 store bought patches, that feels about right...

Your 1-48 will do fine, most don't realize that the original Hawkens were 1-48 as well...There is a difference in barrels made just for balls and those made for conicals and it is the depth of the rifling....My .54 has cut rifling about .012 deep, factory button rifled barrels are about .006 deep...The deeper rifling helps grip the patch material better...That's another reason I was wanting you to try a .018 patch over a .015, just a little tighter fit might make it where you can shoot 90gr of powder...All that being said T/C has made the Hawken since the early 70s or late 60s and they have been used for deer hunting with both balls and conicals...

With the accuracy you are reporting, you have a good deer load, with some work, I bet you can move up to 90grs if that's what you want to do...If you can't get to 90grs, it's probably just striping the rifling as mentioned...

As far as energy levels, forget them when shooting round balls, I've killed deer with my .40 and 60grs of FFF powder...Round balls just have their own characteristics, they flatten easily and do plenty of damage to the lungs...In fact, I see no difference on how far they run with lung shots vs a broadhead or centerfire...

[captchee]

If I have to keep the loads down to less than 75 grains for accuracy, that's basically the bare minimum foot pounds of energy to humanely take deer sized game at 50 yds  (about 500 fpe), right?

ahh wrong ,
500 ft lbs    ? would you think twice as to puting a shot in at 100 yards if you were loaded with 120 grains and could holed a 2 inch group ?
 if not then realize that  depending on your barrel patch and rifling , 120  grains of 3 F is only producing around 446 ft lbs  at 100 yards
that 70 grain charge is puting out around 200flbs more then that at 50 yards  and only  around 60 less ftlbs at 100 yards .
 let your wife step on your foot while wearing high heals . it will yeild way more  then that
while 60 flbs is great for an arrow , its not squat for a bullet
 if 60  ft lbs bother you , go to a bigger bore , shoot less powder and forget it .
 my 54 only produces around 420 ftlbs at 100 with 80 grains of 3 F

[Stuart C.]

Captchee,
Thanks for correcting me.  I need to find round ball load ballistic table.

[Semisane]

  I need to find round ball load ballistic table.

Round ball ballistics calculator:    http://www.ctmuzzleloaders.com/ctml_experiments/rbballistics/rbballistics.html

[captchee]

 remeber only use these calculators and bolistics charge as a general guidline .
 many time you will find them off and off considerably  in comparission to  actual application

[Stuart C.]

Yesterday's range session ended up going very well - much better than before. 

I'm embarrassed to report that some of my previous accuracy issues were due to poor technique.  I was able to load 80 grains and put the rb where I wanted to.  I ended on a bull by holding 3" low at fifty, and figured I should quit while I was ahead.

I rested the rifle out near the muzzle rather than at the foreend, leaned into it more, and made a conscious effort to keep the muzzle down during the shot.  All of these things improved accuracy...or at least they did for me yesterday.  If anyone has any technique advice, feel free to share. 

Thanks again for all the info. 

[Ifishsum]

Stuart, my results with the T/C Hawken 1:48 pretty much mirror yours.  75 grains is about as high as I can get and still get good groups with PRBs. no matter what I do.  80grains is barely acceptable accuracy out to about 75 yards but 70-75 is spot on.  The Lee 320gr REAL conicals shoot well up to 90gr for me, but I'd rather use PRBs.  Before I start doing any serious hunting I'll likely get a 1:66 barrel or a different rifle with a slow twist like the Lyman GPR .54, but if I had to use my TC for hunting as-is I'd probably use the conical. 

[forest2]

  If anyone has any technique advice, feel free to share.   

 Oh yea, there is technique. many way's of technique.
 Oh boy, hold, breathing, natural point of aim. Bench, off hand,,,6 0'clock, center.
Those techniques can varie as much as patch lube.

BASICS;
 The curved butte plate of the Hawkins or GPR does not fit on the shoulder, it's made to fit the upper arm near the shoulder.
 Always hold the fore arm of the gun the same,,no matter how you rest, beit offhand or bench support the forearm of the gun the same. I hold it with my hand..if I'm bench shooting with bag's I support my hand with the bags and still hold the gun. I do not support the barrel it's self.
 Breath; it's natural, become aware of your breathing and drift. Use it to your advantage.
There is much more,, I hope others add more,,,,

[coyotejoe]

One thing you might try is .495" balls. T/C's button rifled barrels have very shallow grooves and such barrels often do better with a larger ball, even up to full bore diameter.

[longcaribiner]

Per Lyman's Black Powder Handbook, (1975) a 498 round ball fired from a 28 inch barrel over 80 grains of powder averages a 1143 ft lbs of muzzle energy and drops to 398 ft lbs at 100yds.  That is using a .015 patch and Goex 3f.  Of course, whether you get the same results depends on a host of things, patch weave tightness, humidity, wind, tightness of the patched ball in the bore, etc.   A longer barrel will slightly improve those figures.  Reducing powder to 2 fg will reduce the figures. 

a 1:48 twist is one of those jack of all trade master of none deals, it was meant to shoot with satisfactory hunting accuracy with PRB and conicals but really isnt a tack driver with either.    the rifling depth is a similar compromise, not the best for either.    But certainly with a moderate hunting load of powder is a good rig for hunting whitetails.

Remember that ft lbs of energy isn't everything, there is also the effect of blood loss and shock from a half inch hole in an animal,   Both the British war Dept and the US Amry in the 1860's considered 60 grains of 2f and a 58 caliber ball as lethal on humans to 200 yards and beyond.    Also, the object of the  hunting firearm is to kill the animal, not blow it up and or a bullet completely through it,    A half inch hole drilled 6 or 7 inches into any white tail sized animal can take it down as easily or better than a 30 caliber pass through the gut.   

[LOGEYE]

Hi Stuart,   I'm getting on this alittle late and after a lot of good advice. I'm a competition blackpowder shooter and you caught my attention because I use a T/C 1:48 .54 Renegade. What you may have experienced with fliers at 100 yards is a pbr going from sonic to subsonic fps. The ball is coming out of the sound barrier,approx greater than 1120 fps+/-,to less fps. This causes the round ball to "bounce" around on air pressure waves and not hit the point of aim. This reasoning was based on an article in "Muzzleblast" magizine put out by the National Muzzleloader Rifle Association in Friendship,Ind. To shorten this up, for best 100yd accuracy and percision My load is 60gr 2F Goex .53 ball patched with .018 patch(Walmart Blue) lubed with 12-15% ballistol/water damp patch. Oh yeah, it's not a good idea to put the last inches of barrel on the sand bag to bench shoot. That darn barrel can actually bend if you lean-into it with your head and shoulders a lot which will throw the shot high.  Good luck hunting and have lots of fun shooting BP.
  LOGEYE
 

[Stuart C.]

- When sighting in from a rest, where do you rest the barrel (28" half stock)?
- Where do you hold the barrel (I think I was allowing too much barrel jump)?

Thanks again!

[captchee]

your rifle when shooting from the rest , should be supported under the forstock in the same location as you would when shooting off hand .
there is no reason to grip it as you would a center fire , the recoil even at higher charges is completely different.
Even when shooting off hand you don’t need to grip the stock , just rest it in you hand . It wont come out .. Use your trigger hand to pull the stock into your shoulder firmly.

When shooting off the bench with bags , resting the actual barrel on the bags can effect barrel harmonics . Thus you will find a different POI when going from bench shooting to off hand . So make sure you rest the rifle in the same location as you would when actually hunting or off hand shooting