Results on PP bullet tests

[Lead pot]

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I had this all typed up once and lost it.   

Well the last of the snow pile I had melted and I found all of the test bullets I shot in it.
I ran some PP bullet tests with short cases and different alloys and bullet diameters and found some interesting things that I would try again to see if I would get the same results.
 

Bullet #1 is a hollow point swaged with 1-30 alloy with a point 1/4" deep.
# 2 HP 1/4" deep swaged with 1-20 alloy.
# 3 HP 1/8" deep swaged with 1-30 alloy.
# 4 & 5 were swaged with 1-30 alloy and swaged to .437 so I could use a paper .0032 thick 20# cotton paper, notice how those two bullets got deformed and folded together just above the case mouth mark, I enlarged those two so you can look at them closer.
# 6 is swaged at 1-18 wrapped with .002 thick tracing paper and a case cut .012 short. notice the bright rings on the short cases.
# 7-8 swaged at 1-25 wrapped with .002 to .449 .012 short case, one had a paper ring in the chamber and the other had lead and paper in the chamber.
# 9 Is a swaged core at 1-30 to a wrapped diameter of .454 diameter and breach seated.
# 10 is a hard cast at 1-16 wrapped to .449 with .002 paper, notice the gas cuts on the base.
# 11 & 12 I don't know what they are the markings on the base were gone.
Here is a close up on bullets 4 and 5.

 

Kurt
 

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Interesting pix.

I'm not sure I follow all your details though.  Bullets #4 & 5 were .337 and patched up to .45 caliber?  But they look the same as those that are .449 and .454.  I don't get it.  What cartridge are these shot from?  .45-70?

And what do you mean by "a case cut 0.012 short"?  And why would that cause bright rings?

[Lead pot]

Thank you for pointing out the .337, that is a pypo--it should be .437.
BJJ,
I get bored in the winter when the temp drops down too single digits and below and that is when I try to figure out what these bullets do other then hitting game or paper or how different alloys perform, and bullet diameters.
My passion is PP and I read from posts were people ask why do I get lead rings and paper rings or why this or why that.
Well I like to find the answers, so to get around the boredom when I can only shoot 8 or 10 rounds before I loose the feeling in my bare fingers so I do this.
The short case deal, I dont have a lead ring or paper ring problem shooting GG or swaged PP bullets. My cases are cut to .002 under chamber length with a fired case.
The reason is that I dont want a gap between the case mouth and the end of the chamber were the taper starts into the land, it's that gap that cuts the rings and also on the PP bullet cuts the patch when the bullet obtrudes, you can see that very clear on picture 7 & 8 that bright ring is the space between the case mouth and the end of the chamber, well that rind is the part of the side wall of the bullet that gets shaved off and makes the lead or paper ring, and cuts off the lower part of the patch and in turn leads the bore.

Maybe you can help me on this puzzle I found on this test.

Look at bullet 4 & 5 the picture below are the same two bullets. Never in my life have I recovered bullets were the bullet was stretched insted of getting compressed when it was fired, and in my life of shooting were I recovered most likely more then a 5 gallon bucket full of bullets shot into snow banks to recover the bullet mostly undamaged have I seen this.
Those two bullets I swaged down so I can wrap them with .003+ thick paper, I talk to some guys that use this thick paper and I was curious just what it did.
I dont use a patch that is thicker then the depth of the groove of the barrel, my feeling is that that bullet does not rotate as fast as it would with the thinner paper because it might strip.
but looking at #5 my thinking is with the short case and the thick paper when the bullet obtruded the paper was pushed in the void and held back the base for just a micro second and let the front portion pull before the paper cut and let the base follow.
Bullet #4 was wrapped the same but I think with the hollow point on that nose compressed that bullet on impact because that ring is almost closed.
Those bullets looked like the bullet on the right before they were fired.
 I would like to have you guys input on this.
Kurt
 

[John Boy]

Lead pot ... except for #9 breech seated bullet, what neck tension were you using for the others?  Or were they finger seated with no tension?  Also, was the paper dry or lubed?
... #12 looks like a nice reload:  sharp base, land cuts are pronounced indicating excellent obdurtration and minimal case obstruction because it was loaded way out.  Maybe a 1:30 - 454 - breech seated and a heavy wad in the case ... would produce excellent accuracy
... I would think from looking at #9, if it were to be a straight sided PP, the base was protected with a 0.060 wad and shot breech loaded or finger seated in the case... would make for an accurate reload

Do say ... thanks for the time and effort you took to make the various combinations, shooting and recovery time and posting up the results.  Is an excellent example that folks can learn from ... Yes, ME!

Believe my next batch of tapers and straight sided will be finger seated only

[Lead pot]

Hi John.
All bullets are shallow seated except #9 with a vellum paper wad over the compressed powder with a 1/4 " lube wad with a .030 wad under the bullet and held with just enough tension to hold the bullet I use a taper crimp and the bullet can be rotated and pulled out with the fingers but it wont fall out by it self.
Bullet #9 I call a wad cutter, it's just a swaged core and patched to .454 diameter. You can see were the patch ended on that bullet by the dark spot on top.
John I been working with that bullet for a while and it does shoot good out tro 200 yards and it cuts a nice clean hole like a pistol wad cutter bullet does, but I havent shot it past 200.


BJJ.
That .337 is a typo it was supposed to be .437" thx for pointing that out.
The calibre is a .45-2.4 and the cases cut short .012 means that there cut .012 short of my chamber depth.
The bright rings are caused by the bullet obtruding into the space between the case mouth and the chamber end and as the bullet moves forward it will cut that lead or paper and the results are lead rings or paper rings found in the throat. Below are the paper rings.
Kurt

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Kurt,

This sounds interesting!  Finally, another freak like me out there who shoots snow-berms to recover bullets and "reads" them.  Let me try to put it into my own words to see if I am understanding you properly. 

When you trim the cases to the "trim-to" length, which is 0.012" shorter than the length of your chamber, you get problems.  However, if you leave the case longer, this solves the lead/paper ring problems. 

I thought those rings were from crimps or grease grooves! 

Is there a pretty sharp edge between the end of the chamber and the beginning of the throat?  I've never heard of this ringing.  I did a chamber cast of my .357 lever action and I can't make out any sharp edge between chamber and throat so maybe that's why it isn't a problem for me.

Also, what kind of powder are you shooting?  In my own experiments I have developed some suspicions that the timing of the pressure peak can affect accuracy and leading.

A stretched bullet?  That I don't know.  In order for the "ring" to cause the bullet to stretch the bullet would have to carry considerable momentum before it fully left the chamber.  I just don't think the bullet is traveling that fast to pull itself apart at that stage of the game.  The only other way I can think to stretch a bullet is to swage the diameter down.  Could it be that the stretching occured when you swaged it down to use the thicker paper?  Could you 

[Lead pot]

BJJ.

"When you trim the cases to the "trim-to" length, which is 0.012" shorter than the length of your chamber, you get problems.  However, if you leave the case longer, this solves the lead/paper ring problems."
I will say yes on that question.
"Is there a pretty sharp edge between the end of the chamber and the beginning of the throat? "
 I havent made a chamber cast on my rifles so I cant say what the dimensions are But I would guess the Shiloh is cut for a .011 case wall.
The chambers on all of my Shilohs are tight, and I wouldn't have it any other way. When I take a case out of the chamber after it is fired and take a measurement of that case length and then full length size that case (which I dont do) that case is .0055 longer, with a 2.5 long case after it's fired in the chamber I trim it .002 short or 2.498.
I have a couple of Brownings that has a generous chamber and that case will be .014 on the .45-70 and .011 on the .40-65. and if those cases were trimmed after full length sized they would be as much as .014 to short.
" I thought those rings were from crimps or grease grooves!"
  I don't crimp I might put a light taper crimp on the PP bullet but on the GG I use a expander plug that gives mr the neck tension I want and no crimp.
But I will say that you can get lead rings when you seat a GG bullet if you dont chamfer the case mouth or use a slight flair, if you can feel the GG when seating the bullet chances are you shaving lead.
"A stretched bullet? "
That is the first for me. I take a guess on this one.
I think what might have happened is when the bullet obtruded the paper jacket was forced in the gap between the case mouth and were the chamber ends holding back back portion of that bullet and the from advanced enough to pull the bullet, I dont know it's just a wild guess.
"Could it be that the stretching occurred when you swaged it down to use the thicker paper? "
No. When your swaging the bullet that is compressing the lead sort to say, you cant compress lead you can make it flow.

Kurt

[Black Jaque Janaviac]

Your guess on the cause of the paper rings sounds like a good one.  I'm just surprised to learn that there is that much obturation that early in the firing sequence. 

I'm using smokeless powder for my paper patching.  So I'm suspecting that obturation might occur a little later.  I don't get the rings that you show.

[sabretip]

Excellent post about paper patching,I'm sure that you have heard about teflon wrapping of cast bullets before.
I have a shooting buddy who casts his own and we have tried unlubed grooved cast bullets with gas checks out of his Browning single shot 45-70.
Usually one or two wraps works best and it leaves no leading and the bore is always sparkling clean,I consider it the paper patch of the new century. I like your results with the paper patch,too bad it's nearly a lost art in todays world of whiz bang magnums.

[Lead pot]

Hi sabretip.
Been away most of the summer since the middle of June Quigley Shoot and a couple others along doing a little prospecting and just got back home.
There are not many trees in the Mountains you can plug a computer in.
The paper patched bullet is not dead in the black powder world.
There is a new spark of interest in the PP bullet on a lot of BPCR forums.
A few years ago here on GBOD I made a few posts on using teflon, it's just not good enough to get any decent accuracy with.
Stay with the paper it will serve you better. Here are a few results using the .50-90, .44-90sbn and the .40-70 from the 200 yard line.
The Paper patch and black powder will work!

click the thumb nails.





And this is the Quigley line up, 602 shooters completed the shoot this year.

Kurt