Launching firecrackers en masse?

[Terry C.]

Fourth of July idea...

Has anyone ever tried launching multiple firecrackers from a mortar?

What I had in mind was a firecracker bundle, that would launch as a single projectile then break apart as the crackers burst.

I would probably use the "li'l Brudder" mortar with its 1.156" bore. I should be able to to make a bundle of a dozen standard Black Cat firecrackers that woud be a loose fit in the bore of this mortar.

I would use white glue, and only put tiny spots where necessary. The outer paper layers should tear away, scattering the firecrackers when they start to burst. They would be backed up with a stiff cardboard wad to make sure that they aren't blown apart by the muzzle blast. The cardboard wad would not seal the bore, it would have windage all around.

Should I turn the fuses out away from the charge, or turn them in toward the charge (through holes in the base)? Do I cut them or leave them full-length?

- IMAGE REMOVED -

Or is this such a BAD idea that it should not be attempted?

[GGaskill]

Cut the center one short so it blows first to scatter the others.  I would probably go fuse forward and coat the majority of the fuse length with something to make the burn start at the end.

[Victor3]

 Years ago I used to make up paper mortar tubes with bundles of crackers as you describe. Problem is, unlike visco, firecracker fuse is easy to light all along its length. When the 'lift' charge (small qty of 4f) goes, it doesn't just light the end of the fuse, it burns the whole length of it up quickly. The crackers went off about 5' after they left the tube. Still neat, but they never got too high up when I did it. YMMV.

 The only solution to this that I ever tried was to roll my own crackers using a short length of visco with the end frayed in order to light easily.

 Unfortunately, I can't do such things where I live. I can't even light up a sparkler without going to another city on the 4th. If you can in your area, do some experiments and have fun! You're probably not going to blow yourself up with a few firecrackers You might have a peek at some of the firework websites to see how they do similar things.

[Dross Drunk]

Finally , One I might be able to help with.....lol

 
 The solution is actually kind of like the two previous ideas combined,, take your small bundle of crackers as pictured with the fuses up, place a small length of visco in the center of these fuses and tie with a light string tightly, so all the fuses are gathered and tight around the centered visco, then run the length of visco downward to the paper disk, punch a small hole, and let approx 1/4" of frayed visco protrude towards the powder charge, now upon lift the visco is lit which at a distance determined by the rate of acceleration of the bundle which is usually around 100ft per second x the fuse burning rate ,and length of fuse that will determine the distance from launch that there will be  ignition.

 I would only add one thing to assure that blow by doesn't ignite the crackers individual fuses instantly, and that would be to make a small surround for the crackers which protects the exposed fuse, on the top side,,, something as light and simple as a small piece of cardboard wrapped around the bundle of crackers as to protect the top, just cut a 2 - 2 1/2' inch piece of cardboard from a cereal box, wrap it around the cracker bundle so it is above their height protecting side exposure to the fuse and put a small pice of masking tape to hold together, this will look like a small cartridge with no top.

 Now this of course could still get a wild spark in the opened top  to ignite prematurely,but this is remedied by a small piece of newspaper or waxpaper taped on to the top.

 If all materials are kept to one thickness, with the exception of the bottom disk, the crackers will easily pop open the paper end or light cardboard wrap,and give the multiple cracker effect you're looking for.... kinda like a BOOM.........crackle, crackle, crackle,crackle

One more thing, if you're not going to glue the visco fuse on both sides of the bottom disk, then I would suggest cutting the visco at a sharp angle to a point on the end that will be exposed to the lift, this accomplishes 2 things.

 Cutting the fuse to an angled point exposes more powder fuse center to the flame front for sure ignition,and it allows for a very small hole to be put in to the bottom disk,and the visco piece twisted through the hole tightly, which eliminates the need for the extra weight and time of glueing it in place......

 cutting old toilet paper roll centers would work great, just cut the roll center in half length wise, then determine how big around and cut it lengthwise, wrap around the crackers ,one thickness only,and tape...

 Of course there are more complete ways of making  multi break salute shells,making complete and solid cardboard canisters ,that have secondary burst charges contained within the shell itself ,but in this case and the small size requirements , this would be extremely cost effective ,light weight, and after all ,there would be extremely low debris afterwards for cleanup.......

 If you have any other questions or if I haven't been clear enough in my description, please feel free to ask...

  Just one more thing, when taping the thin cardboard surround around the crackers make sure it is a tad bit taller then the fuses are of course,,,,and use one piece of tape running lengthwise top/bottom and have tape terminate inside the wrap itself, this will help to insure that any blow by will not enter the surround from the seam sideways............,and remember to keep this outer wrap as thin as possible so the crackers will get good seperation upon ignition for a better effect, it only has to be thick enough to avoid spark through for a split second while launching......

 good luck...and be safe ...remember these crackers will have no rhyme or reason as to which way they burst open,and you very well could have it raining lit crackers,,,, if a safe enough distance isnt obtained from the launching site to the spectators........

 I have always adhered to SUPERMAN'S......Mantra......UP! ...UP!...and.... AWAY!

[Double D]

For now lets not take this discussion beyond lauching firecrackers. 

[Dross Drunk]

 I don't want to run a foul of the cracker only launch, but this is really nothing more than that, and to keep it even closer to crackers only, just place a single wrap of paper or wax paper around the crackers and twist at the top, but this is the concept, I was trying to describe, of course with a tight bundle......

                                               



 Sorry if it seemed I was heading  in to high end explosive canister shells.....not my intent at all.......................

[Cat Whisperer]

For now lets not take this discussion beyond lauching firecrackers. 

I agree.  Great fun, t hough.  But we've set up the scope of this board to be that of pre 1898 mortars/cannons or replicas.  

There are areas of law that we are not familiar with and would very much like to keep within the constraints of the law (for obvious reasons).

We are however open to expanding this, after some research and consideration.

[Dross Drunk]

Well there is little to expand on then really... lets face it using a cannon to launch one firecracker, is still the act of propelling an explosive device, and would probably be considered manufacturing a fireworks device regardless it's classification, 1.3 or 1.4 and therefore illegal without the proper permits etc. etc etc. in any state.......thus making a firecracker cannon really only legal if it's used in a state where class C fireworks are legal ,and then it would be called a firecracker holder, as that would be all it could be used for legally without other licenses or permits required...

 So to any without the proper licenses.... or permits I would strongly urge you to not test the boundaries of the law and stick to black powder as the only charge used as even one firecracker contains Flash Powder....and clearly would fly in the face and the spirit of the antique and antique replica cannons and the laws that protect their collection and use.... taking it a step farther to use these cannons or mortars to propell explosives regardless the number and size......Creates a whole new set of laws to deal with, and the cannon itself would be the least of your concerns at that stage..........

 
 NO ONE ! should ever attempt putting to work any idea proposed for discussion, without a complete understanding of the subject and it's components, and most certainly any and all State and federal Laws which may have control over it's practice.....

 I certainly do not post in any topic without a firm belief that those reading and starting the threads are very clear on the federal ,as well as State laws in their area...........

  Translation >>>>>>>>>> shooting firecrackers out of cannon...... dumb Idea

                                         Me trying to help accomplish it safely.......more dumberer

[Tropico]

  Me trying to help accomplish it safely.......more dumberer 

I dont know.., I think anytime someone is trying to help someone get their idea accomplisshed safer.., thats a good thing.  I very much enjoyed this thread the last few days. Things flying around then going pop has been happening long before 1898 just ask a chinaman.

Anyway maybe enough has been said  however I learned something., and I am looking forward to my new Brooks M-BPFC cannon which is designed expressly for this particular application ., just on a small scale ., probably the scale it should be. 1 firecracker at a time.
Fun Fun., Safety ., and a happy fourth every one., My new front porch is almost finished., I cant fire a cannon this year but I will be watching my crew fire for me from this new porch (my recent neck surgery cant take the recoil of my swivel cannon) .

Hopefully someone will start a Fourth of July photo thread so we can all enjoy some fire and smoke.

[Double D]

Thanks Droos Drunk for that, we all needed to see it.

[Dross Drunk]

 You're very welcome


 Had I kept in mind that not all can be "a given" .... I would have made that last post as a lead in......

 I sometimes forget the required intelligence to ask a question is not an assurance of the maturity to manipulate the answer......


 I guess I'm the type a guy who would help someone solve the issue of launching a car in to the woods with a mortar, before I would find out it is his wife's car he was referring too.......

  To all have a happy & Safe 4th....I will have plenty of smoke and fire pics by the weeks end........Let Freedom Ring

[MikeR C]

I went over to my sisters tonight for an early "fourth of July" party and took my golf ball cannon along. This is what I found out about shooting firecrackers "en masse". Your mileage may vary.
My mortar has a 1/2" diameter by 1" long chamber holding aprox 50 gr of powder. I loaded 100 grains of FFFG which meant powder was covering the whole bottom of the bore. I opened a 50 cracker string of Black cat 1 1/2" firecrackers then rolled it up and dropped it down the bore. The roll fits the bore very loosely and the ends of the firecrackers are abut 1/4" below the muzzle.
It goes of with an OK bang and the firecrackers go maybe 20 feet with a good spread then pretty much all pop at the same time. I did it twice and got exactly the same results both times.
It was dark so I couldn't tell how many didn't go off but it seemed like a LOT of them went off. It was simple, easy and produced very good results.

Thx
MikeR C

[Rickk]

I have "dabbled" on the pyro side a bit in the last year.

A bunch of sort of random facts that I have learned that you can use or not... ymmv, etc

No legal advice on what you can do is included. I only included a short suggestion on what you really should not be doing... as in not crossing the line between "consumer fireworks" category and making what the ATF considers "bomb".  The same info is available on just about any of the pyro supply web sites, as they don't want to be involved with people who make bombs.

Little salute firecracker fuses arn't the most reliable things ever created. They go out fairly easily.

Fuses in general are not the easiest things to light to begin with (probably a good thing btw).

Green Visco "cannon fuse" is way more reliable than the little paper fuse on little crackers, but it still isn't what they use in arial pyro devices.

Real "launched" pyro devices use "time fuse". Time fuse has several advantages over "cannon fuse". One is that it is heavy walled and burns completely on the inside. That means that the fire isn't coming out untill it has finished burning (important to prevent premature detonation of charge). It also means that lanch speed winds are not going to blow it out. Another advantage is that is is generally 1/4 inch diameter rather than 1/8 inch diameter. It carries a lot more fire when it does it's thing for additional reliability and better flash at the end. It burns around 3-4 seconds per inch.

Even though time fuse is big, they still augment it's fire pass capability by slitting the "out end" 1/2 inch or so and putting a several inch long length of qucikmatch sideways into the slit. The end of the slit time fuse is tied off with small string. It is painted with "NC laquer" (more on that in a second) and then the wet paint is dipped into meal-D or 4f BP. They prime the "IN" end in a similar way with an inch or so long piece of quickmatch as well to improve ignition reliability.

"NC laquer" - nitrocellous laquer, is gun cotton desolved in acetone. Desolving a single based rifle power in acetone to make a thick, saturated solution is the same thing. Double based is not interchangable with single based. Most (not all) IMR brand powder is single based and their web site tells which are which. It dries very quickly ( less than a minute). It is sticky when wet (BP sticks to it well). It burns real well even without BP stuck to it, but BP ignites more easily due to the large and surface area of the powder grains. Never tried it, but you might have luck gooping up the fuse entry area of a common firecracer with NC laquer and dipping it in some fine BP. That would pretty much bypass 90% of the fuse and only leave the protected internal part functional. The NC/BP blob would offer a bit of additional delay as well. The amount of energy in a single cracker is so low compared even to the cannon's BP charge that if it did go off in the barrel while experimenting the effect on the gun would be insignificant.

Side note: A glob of NC laquer and a blob of fine BP on both ends end of a length of cannon fuse when firing cannons makes it a) easier to light, b) passes more fire when it gets to the other end.

REALLY IMPORTANT SUGGESTION (cover up your as* and stay out of trouble time )
The ATF says a ground-fired firecracker can have up to 50 mg of flash powder in it and still be a consumer firework. An arial device can have up to 160 mg of flash powder in it.  Flash powder is different than Black Powder. It is a high explosive. If it has more flash powder than that in it, it is no longer a consumer firework. If you don't have a federal explosives licence the ATF instead calls a "BOMB" and they send you to jail for long long time.  I'm not sure how much flash is in a 1 1/2 inch salute. It may approach 50 mg. 50 mg is not much, not much at all.  Anyway, if you launch less than 3 perfectly legal common salutes, you would certainly have no more than 3x50 or a total 150 mg of flash powder in the payload, which is less than 160 mg limit for arial devices. Are 10 separate firecrackers fired together counted the same as one big one with the same total amount of powder? - I think it is but I don't know for certain. If you launch more than 3 at once and you arn't a legal expert (I'm not) you would might want to know more about what is inside to be certain that you are under 160 mg. Taking a common cracker apart and measuring the stuff is a bit tricky as the powder is mostly a very fine metalic powder. You will wind up with more of the silver stuff on you than in the pan of your scale. If you ever played with "anti-seize" compound and then looked like the Tin Man from the Wizard of Oz you will know what I mean. I'm not telling you what you can or can't do, just what might be the difference between "no problem" and "problem". ymmv,etc,  I'm not a lawer, I don't even play one on tv, but I have been playing with pyro stuff for a while and the "M-80's are bad, stay legal warnings" are everywhere I shop for supplies or information.

Let's see, how much trouble did I just get myself into?
Give out Flash Powder formula - nope
Tell how to make an M-80 or similar - nope
Alternate fuses, quickmatch techniques - we talk about that all the time here, good stuff for all of us to know.
Don't make a BOMB and go to jail - Legal advice - nah... common sense.

[Terry C.]

Or is this such a BAD idea that it should not be attempted?

Thanks to all.

I've pretty much scrapped the idea, mostly for the reasons stated above.

And also because it sounds like a lot of work, and I'm lazy. 

I think I'll stick to the BP charges for today. Just finished rolling some fatties*.

I may build a dedicated firecracker canon or mortar later, but it'll have the proper bore to launch a single cracker at a time.


*Big fat powder charges. What did you think I meant?

[Rickk]

if you want to try something as much fun, easy and absoltutely legal, try substituting a mixed assorment of 1/4 to 1/2 inch lengths of "flying fish fuse" and "crackling fuse" for the firecrackers. It's just fuse, not a firecracker... but at night it borders on the positive side of the lots-of-fun line.

Slylighter and Pyrocreations both carry the stuff (as well as cannon fuse of course).

[Double D]

Okay lets see, pyrotechics, 4th of July,  board rules!!

Cannon mentioned in every post...good to go--today

[Victor3]

if you want to try something as much fun, easy and absoltutely legal, try substituting a mixed assorment of 1/4 to 1/2 inch lengths of "flying fish fuse" and "crackling fuse" for the firecrackers. It's just fuse, not a firecracker... but at night it borders on the positive side of the lots-of-fun line.

Slylighter and Pyrocreations both carry the stuff (as well as cannon fuse of course).

 Yup. Works well.

 Unfortunately, it isn't legal everywhere. Where I live, it's illegal to 'launch' anything burning into the air.

[Dross Drunk]

Not only your state

 The truth be known about this subject from a legal prospective is this... Firecracker cannons, are only legal to shoot of course if you live in a state that allows class C common fireworks firstly,,,, but the rub issue is this, state and federal law enforcement, look at class C fireworks very much like they look at firearms, in as much as you can not alter anything classified as a firearm in any way other than aesthetics or you have run a foul of the law, and the same thing applies to fireworks, just because you start with a class C device, like a simple 1 1/2" black Cat lets say...doesn't mean that you can alter them from their intended use , as you will note all consumer grade fireworks come with instructions on the package as to how to fire, and many of those instructions are from a safety point of view, but also have a legal side to them,,, there are simple little additions that come with firearms and fireworks laws, which is usually stated as
 "Intended Use".... those words intended use are paramount in the laws that protect the use and collection of antique and antique replica, Cannons / Mortars / Thundermugs......

 The minute you take any of those 3 Items which we all love , and have a protected legal right to enjoy, and use them to fire an expoding projectile, and I don't care about the Mg's of flash ,it could be a lady finger for all I care.....

 You have rung the bell.... of "intended use" and turned your safe and fun BP Cannon/Mortar/Thundermug into what is classified by the ATF as a military type mortar, and thus alters it's classification to a firearm, and you can't unring that bell.

 All of the sudden with nothing more than the change of payload your protected BP device becomes classified as a firearm, and thus would require a great deal of licensing for the making and use of such items as they will all fall under the GCA (gun control act),and the laws that restrict their manufacture and or use.....= Bad Medicine.....

 Although the colored and flying fuse idea also appears to be a fairly safe and visually great concept,,,, it has it's pitfalls as well

 Many Class C fireworks manufacturers use this fuse cut into small pieces as payload for smaller fountains and as effects in many stick type rockets, which are also deployed by a small burst of BP at the seated position( when shell is going neither up or down anymore)

 So there could clearly be issues where local law enforcement could look at this as manufacturing a fireworks device, and just because it may be legal to use Class C in your state, that's not even close to whats required to make them..(whole different story)

 As a short example a man who anticipated  his favorite team winning the big game had made himself up in advance a simple little toy that many of us have played with in our pasts ,it was a balloon filled with 2 common gasses I wont mention here !  , he had kept it in the back seat of his car on the trip to the game and somehow it was ignited, it blew out all his windows, and literally mushroomed the roof of his car, which fortunately he was not in at the time the article claims....

 The end result was that the police found the man who owned the car and he was charged with making an incendiary device....a felony.....

 So even though the balloon and it's contents were very legal and very common, they were assembled in such a way that it violated the "intended use" which then left him open to be charged in a number of ways he had not expected I'm sure...

 and this could end up being the reach local law enforcement would take on firing fuse pieces from any BP device, based on intended use it could be classified as manufacturing Fireworks or if they are in a really bad mood making an incendiary device, neither of which would be fun for the whole family......

 So as a Pyrotech for some 30 plus years, I would suggest from a legal standpoint (and I'm not a lawyer) but have had many occasions to consult one, that we don't sully the reputation of legal BP firing devices, by trying to alter them into things they are not, and if it's fireworks you want, pay the small fees for a limited use permit, and you can order, transport, and fire, all the fireworks you like as per the limitations of the permit you choose as there are several different types to choose from depending on....What? say it with me now...... "Intended Use"

 So my last post on this subject would be this.... if you want snap crackle and pop with brilliant colors,and live where they are legal then buy fireworks, and enjoy.......and save the BP Cannons /Mortars/ Thundermugs for the Boom that is missing in a class C display.

 It will protect you from having to try and explain to local law enforcement what in the world you were thinking, you will get fireworks as intended and made safely for your use and enjoyment, and most importantly it will keep the law makers from adding unwarranted restrictions on the BP cannons we love as they may just consider those Cannons /Mortars, and Thundermugs as the hand that rocked the cradle,and make more restrictions than are already in place.............
 
 I urge anyone that is interested in this subject to do some research, No-one is saying you can't have colored,snap,crackle,pop, and BOOM ! I'm just suggesting that they remain separate as far as the devices used to achieve them........

As my 4th was spent under a near constant downpour of rain, we will be celebrating tonight, and smoke and fire pics will be posted sometime this week....... I hope all this mumbo jumbo has had a positive effect, and if nothing else has made you aware of the dreaded
 "Intended Use" concept... it's not all that well known, but believe me those that wish to enforce it are well aware of it, and so should you be...

 I hope everyone had a safe and happy 4th....................

[Cat Whisperer]

Well said, thanks.

Keep it safe and legal.

[jeeper1]

I celebrated independence day shooting my golf ball mortar before dark and a fireworks display after dark. Not counting the roman candles, cakes and other stuff there was 318 mortar shells launched over the Hood Canal. Here is a link to the video.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=igUArYM7WZs

[jeeper1]

I couldn't see where the golf balls splashed down at as for me I lost sight of them as they were still going up but others could see the splashdowns. Apparently the 2 lead balls made much bigger splashes from the comment I got.

[Terry C.]

All valid points, and good enough reason for me NOT to do this.

I'll just have to build a proper firecracker cannon or mortar.

Tough job, but someone has to do it...