question for the experienced

[mjbgalt]

i have bought several weatherby vanguards, and i love them. if i was going to build a custom, i would start there because they're about 85% of what i would want to end up with. the problem is that, while i have a lot of .300" size groups i have shot in my life, none have been with those rifles. the best i can usually get them is about 1.5" if i am lucky. several i have sold or traded because they strung shots everywhere. i bought them again because, hey, i love the design, and how many could be wrong, right?

well...

the one i have now is a .25-06 and i shot it today for the first time with federal 85-grain loads, factory. it strung them horizontally about 3."

not ok.

I did only shoot the one factory load, and sure, i can handload and see if it gets better, however...

when you guys see a gun which strings shots out like that, how many times has it been the ammo the gun didn't like, and how many times has it been a bedding problem with the gun?

this one is bedded at the recoil lug but then has a contact point an inch from the end of the forearm, like all of the vanguards do.

one rifle i free-floated and it made zero difference. that one is long gone...

so where should i go from here?

-Matt

[R.W.Dale]

so where should i go from here?

 I've owned 4 vanguards/Howa's two 22-250s one 6.5x55 and a 300wby

 While they all shot sorta OK I can honestly say that I have NEVER fired a great group with any of them. EVER. I've since made the switch to Savage/Stevens based rifles and have yet to get a rifle that go sub MOA with some tinkering and load development even with the stock barrels.

 There comes a point where cutting your losses becomes the best option.

[beemanbeme]

If your rifle has the fine (read thin) barrel and the free bore of the rest of the Weatherbys, you may be getting all you can get.  Reloading or trying other brands of ammo my help or, at least, rounded groups.  You might want to try adding a biz card between the pressure point at the front of the stock and the barrel.  See if more up pressure on the thin barrel will help.  Also, a heavier bullet may change your story. 
As you have found out, free floating is not the straight road to Jerusalem that many would have you think. 

[mjbgalt]

no, the vanguards don't have the freebore and pencil-thin barrels.

the target that came with my rifle shows two in almost the same hole and one an inch away from the group.

i am REALLY not in the mood to spend $400 customizing my $600 rifle to shoot like it should have when it came from the damn box.

-Matt

[JustaShooter]

I have no experience with the Weatherby Vanguard, although I've been tempted by their sub-moa line.

Anyway, have you asked them what they used to shoot the test group?  Seems like it might be a good starting place...

Just a Shooter

[beemanbeme]

Geez Matt, all's I said was stick a biz card between the pressure point and the barrel and try a heavier bullet.  That's not gonna cost $400.
I like the idea of calling them up. 

[R.W.Dale]

the target that came with my rifle shows two in almost the same hole and one an inch away from the group.

IIRC I remember reading that the test targets are fired with the action mounted in a fixture with no stock

[mjbgalt]

yep, you're right. they bolt them into a machine rest.

i suppose this saves them money by not having to pay someone to install the stock, shoot, uninstall stock, etc. but to me, it causes this problem of every once in a while they send one out the door that doesn't like the stock it's in.

anyway, these are high-quality guns, i just ask a LOT of my rifles. i want .75" out of this one. my Contender puts 3 in .500" or less every time, no reason this one can't as well.

i wasn't saying the business card wouldn't work, beeman. just frustrated that it doesn't just work on its own. they used 100 grain bullets to shoot the target, but i want something smaller for varmints and coyotes right now.

also, the pressure it takes to separate the barrel from the stock channel when it's tightened is ridiculous. i am afraid i am going to damage something before i can slide paper between the stock and barrel.

-Matt

[torpedoman]

no, the vanguards don't have the freebore and pencil-thin barrels.

the target that came with my rifle shows two in almost the same hole and one an inch away from the group.

i am REALLY not in the mood to spend $400 customizing my $600 rifle to shoot like it should have when it came from the damn box.

-Matt

In that case buy a savage.

[FW Conch]

  If it takes that much pressure to get your action & barrel out of the stock, THAT could be your problem right there !   

[beemanbeme]

You're not trying to wedge the card in without taking the rifle out of the stock are you??

FWIW, one of the first things I do when I get a new rifle is take it apart and just look it over for wood chips, milling chips, "stuff" that ain't supposed to be there and the like. Make sure the stock and action and barrel seem in reasonable alignment.  And give it a good cleaning. 

If I were you, I'd start over and start there.  Also, you need to get back in your Zen mood. You're upset with the rifle and if you expect a rifle to do poorly, it will.  Some rifles have a distinct preference in ammo or bullet weight.  I have two match grade rifles, one prefers the 53gr SMK flat based bullet and the other likes the 52gr SMK BT bullet. It's never easy, don'tchaknow.

[mjbgalt]

i already cleaned and detailed the rifle when i got it home, and found no irregularities. what i was describing was to create a gap between the barrel and stock while it'a assembled, takes a ton of pulling. on my other rifles with bedding, it takes a little pressure but that's it.

i am going to the range this evening with reloads and a different bullet. it may be that it just didnt like factory ammo i chose. who knows.

-Matt

[Lone Star]

Sounds to me like there may be too much forend pressure.  If it takes more then 10# of pressure to pull the forend away from the barrel, that is probably too much.  Put a piece of the card under the action behind the recoil lug to reduce forend pressure without removing any wood and see if that makes any difference.

Weatherby recognized the limited accuracy of most of these rifles, hense the "sub-moa" variants to address the problem.  Not everyone has the problem you have with their Vanguard, but it isn't unheard-of either.




.

[mjbgalt]

well i took it out with my reloads tonight and shot at 50 yards...got several one-inch or slightly bigger groups.

all groups did have one flier that ruined the group though.

but much better, rounded groups.

maybe this can be solved with reloads?

-Matt

[mjbgalt]

ok i may have solved this...i realized that the bench setup i used was causing me to rest the rifle on the front sling swivel stud.

also used varget instead of 4064, and got tiny little groups at 50 yards, all touching or in one bigger hole.

then moved to 100 yards and got MOA.

I would like 1/2 MOA but this is a great start!

Thanks for the suggestions.

-Matt