Why the Half-Cock Safety?

[SuperstitionCoues]

I know that traditionally half-cock if the safety on a lever action.  My question is why?  I mean, mechanically, what does half-cock do or not do that prevents an accidental discharge? 

Just wondering....

[Empty Quiver]

When the hammer is down it is in direct contact with the firing pin. A direct blow to the hammer will cause it to fire. The trigger safety came later in the evolution of the rifle, and is a good feature when the hammer is fully cocked before a shot is taken or when lowering the hammer on a live round. Many here will poo poo my opinion on the trigger safety but lots of younger shooters have never encountered a half cock notch and the trigger safety is intuitive for them.

[EsoxLucius]

If one can't fathom the equipment maybe they shouldn't be using it. 

A half-cock safety simply prevents the hammer from fully engaging the firing pin, even if the trigger is depressed.  There are indeed implications for manipulating a half-cock safety with a live round in the chamber.  However, the first rule of gun safety is a requisite during that operation.

[SuperstitionCoues]

If one can't fathom the equipment maybe they shouldn't be using it. 

A half-cock safety simply prevents the hammer from fully engaging the firing pin, even if the trigger is depressed.  There are indeed implications for manipulating a half-cock safety with a live round in the chamber.  However, the first rule of gun safety is a requisite during that operation.

And maybe I should conceal my lack of knowledge of the equipment while you are standing next to me?  Perhaps accidentally putting a round into you?  Hmm?  Better to ask a question when the answer is not apparent than to make a mistake.  My thought was that there might be an interlock with the trigger, much like a loading gate on a Ruger Super Blackhawk or Single Six.

I have stayed away from this forum for the past year because I grew weary of dealing with pretentious, impudent, short-sighted people like you, EsoxLucius.  Things haven't changed much.

[torpedoman]

I have met people who knew everything and never needed to ask anyone anything. Most usually got bit sooner or later. It is always better to ask when in doubt about anything.

[Keith L]

"Personal Attacks are considered unacceptable at GBO and will result in removal from the GBO website, the manner in which these are handled will be at the discretion of the Administration. In cases of continued disagreements in open forum by multiple parties equal action will be taken with all involved parties, no one member will be shown special consideration in such cases regardless of membership status."

This is one of the rules for posting here at GBO.  There is a link to these rules in the first post on this forum.  Read and follow them.

[BBF]

Keith L:
If this is so, and I have no quarrel with those rules, I suggest you review the political and religious forums here and ban a whole flok of people and shut down those types of forums.

[Keith L]

I point out these rules here because this is one of the lists I moderate.  I have no control over the others.  These rules are what keep this free from the petty flame wars and other crap that ruins so many sites.  If Bill decides that he wants to do away with the family friendly decorum that exists here then it is his right.  I hope he doesn't.  But until he does then I will continue to remind folks to play nice.

[EsoxLucius]

I guess I made the mistake of not being explicit as to what post I was responding to and why.

Many here will poo poo my opinion on the trigger safety but lots of younger shooters have never encountered a half cock notch and the trigger safety is intuitive for them.

If one can't fathom the equipment maybe they shouldn't be using it.   I thought a gun safety rule was to know the proper operation of your equipment, whether or not it is "intuitive."

I know that traditionally half-cock if the safety on a lever action.  My question is why?  I mean, mechanically, what does half-cock do or not do that prevents an accidental discharge? 

Just wondering....

A half-cock safety simply prevents the hammer from fully engaging the firing pin, even if the trigger is depressed. 

There are indeed implications for manipulating a half-cock safety with a live round in the chamber.  However, the first rule of gun safety is a requisite during that operation.

I'm sorry if my response seemed pretentious, impudent, short-sighted, or like a personal attack.  It was not meant to be, but I can see now how it could be taken as such.  However, it also seems like there are many people who look for every opportunity to cry foul in this medium that has its definite limitations for revealing the writer's intent.  If one is looking to be offended, they likely will be, whether an offense was intended or not.

It certainly seems that implying that someone should be shot for simply stating one's opinion about gun safety and certain facts is rather malicious in comparison to just being pretentious, impudent or short-sighted.   I'm sorry my actions caused someone to have such feelings.  But such is the medium we are limited to, for all I know that is not what was meant at all.

[SuperstitionCoues]

Esoxlucius and others,

I guess you did make the mistake of not being expliciit...  No implication to you being intentionally shot was intended, as you did not intend for your comments to be immediately directed to me the original poster.  Rather it was a blunt and to the point hypothetical illustration of what the engineered  purpose of a mechanical safety device is intended to prevent (an accidental discharge), and what could happen if one doesn't know how it works or to work it (your, or anyone else's , rapid and unintentional demise).  Personally I prefer to use both the half-cock and the cross-trigger safety.

I am typically not that easily offended.  I did feel like you were saying that it was a stupid question and that the knowledge should be intuitive.  While I try to be omniscient, I often fail (ask my wife and the women I work with )  I use this forum and others to ask these questions before I shoot, so that I don't run into trouble.  And I have run into a response like what we are discussing more often than not.  You are correct about the limitations of this medium - and unfortunately there are those who use it as a bully pulpit to exercise their new-found internet-derived expertise over others.  I don't care for it.  I won't stand for it in my laboratory, my field work, or my home.  I have had a bellyfull of it.  You hit a nerve.  Everyone needs to feel free to ask a question and learn something more about what they are doing; especially if it leans to increasing the safety margin of a hunt or shoot.
That is my intolerance speaking... and I am sorry if that intolerance was unloaded on you. 

Best wiishes,

SC

[EsoxLucius]

Hunter Safety courses regularly teach that the safety is a mechanical device and therefore subject to failure.  While it is important to know how a safety works and to use it properly, a safety is no substitute for the first rule of gun safety, nor any other rule of safe gun handling.

===================================================================

1. ALWAYS keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.
This is the primary rule of gun safety. A safe direction means that the gun is pointed so that even if it were to go off it would not cause injury or damage. The key to this rule is to control where the muzzle or front end of the barrel is pointed at all times. Common sense dictates the safest direction, depending on different circumstances.

2. ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until ready to shoot.
When holding a gun, rest your finger on the trigger guard or along the side of the gun. Until you are actually ready to fire, do not touch the trigger.

 
 3. ALWAYS keep the gun unloaded until ready to use.
Whenever you pick up a gun, immediately engage the safety device if possible, and, if the gun has a magazine, remove it before opening the action and looking into the chamber(s) which should be clear of ammunition. If you do not know how to open the action or inspect the chamber(s), leave the gun alone and get help from someone who does.


Note the ancillary gun safety rule below in bold:

Know your target and what is beyond.
Be absolutely sure you have identified your target beyond any doubt. Equally important, be aware of the area beyond your target. This means observing your prospective area of fire before you shoot. Never fire in a direction in which there are people or any other potential for mishap. Think first. Shoot second.

Know how to use the gun safely.
Before handling a gun, learn how it operates. Know its basic parts, how to safely open and close the action and remove any ammunition from the gun or magazine. Remember, a gun's mechanical safety device is never foolproof. Nothing can ever replace safe gun handling.

Be sure the gun is safe to operate.
Just like other tools, guns need regular maintenance to remain operable. Regular cleaning and proper storage are a part of the gun's general upkeep. If there is any question concerning a gun's ability to function, a knowledgeable gunsmith should look at it.

Use only the correct ammunition for your gun.
Only BBs, pellets, cartridges or shells designed for a particular gun can be fired safely in that gun. Most guns have the ammunition type stamped on the barrel. Ammunition can be identified by information printed on the box and sometimes stamped on the cartridge. Do not shoot the gun unless you know you have the proper ammunition.

Wear eye and ear protection as appropriate.
Guns are loud and the noise can cause hearing damage. They can also emit debris and hot gas that could cause eye injury. For these reasons, shooting glasses and hearing protectors should be worn by shooters and spectators.

Never use alcohol or over-the-counter, prescription or other drugs before or while shooting.
Alcohol, as well as any other substance likely to impair normal mental or physical bodily functions, must not be used before or while handling or shooting guns.

Store guns so they are not accessible to unauthorized persons.
Many factors must be considered when deciding where and how to store guns. A person's particular situation will be a major part of the consideration. Dozens of gun storage devices, as well as locking devices that attach directly to the gun, are available. However, mechanical locking devices, like the mechanical safeties built into guns, can fail and should not be used as a substitute for safe gun handling and the observance of all gun safety rules.

Be aware that certain types of guns and many shooting activities require additional safety precautions.

Cleaning
Regular cleaning is important in order for your gun to operate correctly and safely. Taking proper care of it will also maintain its value and extend its life. Your gun should be cleaned every time that it is used.
A gun brought out of prolonged storage should also be cleaned before shooting. Accumulated moisture and dirt, or solidified grease and oil, can prevent the gun from operating properly.

Before cleaning your gun, make absolutely sure that it is unloaded. The gun's action should be open during the cleaning process. Also, be sure that no ammunition is present in the cleaning area.

=================================================================

Accidental discharges happen, even when the operator thought the safety was engaged.  Safe gun handling can mean that even when such occurrences happen nobody needs to get hurt and no damage need be done.

[SuperstitionCoues]

No kidding.

[EsoxLucius]

And maybe I should conceal my lack of knowledge of the equipment while you are standing next to me?  Perhaps accidentally putting a round into you?  Hmm?  Better to ask a question when the answer is not apparent than to make a mistake.

Rather it was a blunt and to the point hypothetical illustration of what the engineered purpose of a mechanical safety device is intended to prevent (an accidental discharge), and what could happen if one doesn't know how it works or to work it (your, or anyone else's, rapid and unintentional demise).

No kidding.

It is obvious I wasn't kidding as it is also obvious that the above statements don't indicate a full appreciation or application of the points made in my previous post.  Not understanding the operation of the half cock safety is not the only mistake that was hypothetically illustrated.


More info:

The Marlin 336, 1895 and 444 rifles are lever action rifles. Manipulating a lever located on the underside of the rifle operates the action. When the lever is opened downward the bolt is opened, cocking an exposed hammer which pivots rotatibly around a hammer screw. The hammer has two operating positions created by notches, which the sear of the trigger slips into, as the hammer is cocked. The first position is the half cock position. When the hammer is in the half cock position the rifle is considered safe. The shape of the half-cock notch locks the sear against the hammer and prevents the trigger from being pulled to fire the weapon.  Hence, the half cock mechanism is actually a hammer block. The second position of the hammer is the full cocked position. When the hammer is fully cocked, pulling the trigger will release the hammer and fire the weapon. A second safety feature on the Marlin lever action rifles is a trigger safety block. The trigger safety block stops the trigger from being pulled prior to the lever being fully closed and the bolt completely locked up inside the receiver. The trigger cannot be pulled to allow the sear to release the hammer and fire the weapon unless the lever is fully closed deactivating the trigger safety block.  The newer Marlin lever action rifles also have a cross-bolt safety which is a trigger block which operates independently of the operation of the lever and the hammer.

There are two main periods of real hazard when manipulating a rifle with only a half cock safety.  When cycling a round into the chamber from the magazine the hammer remains in the full cock position and the gun will fire if the trigger is depressed.  This requires releasing the hammer to its half cock position to engage the safety.  This is done by controlling the muzzle and using the thumb to let the hammer down to the half cock position while lightly depressing the trigger with the index finger.  If the thumb should slip off the hammer the gun will fire.  In addition, when cycling the action to unload the rifle there are times when there is a full cock hammer over live rounds in the chamber.  That is why the first rule of gun safety applies; always keep a gun pointed in a safe direction treating it as if it is loaded and can potentially fire.

[SuperstitionCoues]

Thank you.  After an excess of verbage, finally a sincere answer by you to the original question.  It would help if you cited your sources - there may be more information there that I can derive for myself as what you provided was very helpful.  It was exactly what I was looking for. 

The previous lecture in safe handling techniques was rather unecessary and presumptive, thus generating my laconic response (i.e. ...and your point is what?)  Everyone could always use a gentle reminder of safe practices, however it is extraneous to the original post as it was pointed in a mechanical engineering vector instead of a philosophical discussion regarding the practices of gun handling and hunter safety.  If you read your next to last post carefully, it demonstrates exactly why I asked the question in the first place.   May I point out that if you had treated my original question with the seriousness you now have, instead of the flip judgemental approach you first took regardless (of who the poster was), all of this could have been avoided?

Again, thank you for the trouble you took in finding the details of the answer.

[EsoxLucius]

First, all my responses are sincere.
Second, a thirty-second search of the Internet revealed an adequate discussion of the half cock safety in a patent application by Wild West Guns for their Happy Trigger Kit for Marlin lever action rifles.
Third, as to the unnecessary gun safety lecture, two posters here, including you, cited examples that seemed to suggest relying on the function and correct operation of a safety rather than that AND the exercise of proper gun handling.  Indeed, if in both examples the rules I reiterated were followed, an accidental discharge would be less likely to occur as the operator would have an understanding of the operation of the firearm before handling, loading and firing it, and if an accidental discharge were to occur it would be more likely that no injury, death or damage would result as the operator would always keep the gun pointed in a safe direction.  I don't see that discussion as unnecessary at all.
Finally, I was serious from the beginning.  I perhaps didn't frame my original response correctly as I already said.  It took me several posts to try to get across what I meant by that original post and my subsequent responses, and I perhaps am still misunderstood.  It is clear from this experience and many others I have encountered in these forums that people sure have different attitudes, thought processes and ways of expressing themselves that prevent a meeting of the minds as it were.

I'm glad I eventually satisfied you even though it may have been painful for us both.

[kennyd]

GEEZ.  If you look at old flint lock (and probably older) firearms there is a trigger which releases the hammer (cock).  The notch for holding that position is flat.  For loading, carrying etc, there was another notch with a lip so the sear could not slide off.  This was the half cock, either over a frizzen, cap, or firing pin/primer.

They can  break and then you have:  "going off half cocked".

[BBF]

sideline:
Is there an engineering reason why Marlin didn't go to a transfer bar system instead of the manual cross block safety which I do not like and have locked in the off position just in case I would forgot take it OFF  and would loose the chance of making a good shot.

[S.B.]

When the hammer is down it is in direct contact with the firing pin. A direct blow to the hammer will cause it to fire. The trigger safety came later in the evolution of the rifle, and is a good feature when the hammer is fully cocked before a shot is taken or when lowering the hammer on a live round. Many here will poo poo my opinion on the trigger safety but lots of younger shooters have never encountered a half cock notch and the trigger safety is intuitive for them.

Most of the half cock hammers I've seen (Marlins, Colt 1911s) are a hook type and it would be very diffecult to get them to drop on a cartridge? Maybe, with a hammer and a direct hit on the hammer, breaking the hook off?
The current fashion of cross bolt safeties is because we have an abundance of lawyers in this country that are sue happy.