Author Topic: Underlug improvements (Read 14359 times)

McLernon · « **Reply #30 on:** February 23, 2008, 02:32:22 PM »

Why doesn't NEF take the weld to the end and and around it to reinforce the bearing surface?

Mc

quickdtoo · « **Reply #31 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:05:48 PM »

Best guess is it's a failsafe feature, it will give there before catastophic failure of the frame in a severe overpressure scenario.

Tim

McLernon · « **Reply #32 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:20:18 PM »

I think you must be right as it seems such an obvious week link.

Mc

McLernon · « **Reply #33 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:23:43 PM »

Tim, have you considered brazing the region where the weld stops to strengthen the bearing surface. That would probably be as stiff or stiffer than the mods you have undertaken?

Mc

quickdtoo · « **Reply #34 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:26:40 PM »

No, brazing is still in the realm of welding and may be worse.

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #35 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:36:48 PM »

Tim, you really have to get into welding and perhaps even brazing. I used to help out a buddy in his auto body shop and it's not all that hard. You are a very handy and ingenious fellow and a starter weling setup can be had for $150.00 or less at Sears and Roebucks. I got my wire feed Mig welder on sale as a return for just under $100. The part time salesman was a welder for his real job and he went through the kit and threw in everything that was miissing and what he thought I might need. I guess he was happy someone else was interested in welding, even as a hobby or just around the house and yard. I was lucky but the cost to get into it is not much. Try it buddy, I am sure you will have a blast....<><....

P.S. - at the shop when we ran out of rod my buddy would use straightened out coat hangers!!!

quickdtoo · « **Reply #36 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:43:32 PM »

Well, I'm sorta like Matthew Quigley, didn't say I didn't know how to weld, I used to weld, both arc and acetylene, but that was a long time ago, of the few projects that I've done over the years that required welding I took to local shops at a cost of a lot less than what it would cost me to do it myself, so I've never felt the need for it.

Tim

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #37 on:** February 23, 2008, 03:54:12 PM »

Tim

You think like i do , its cheaper to pay someone to do it right the first time than to pay them to fix what i messed up .

Richard

quickdtoo · « **Reply #38 on:** February 23, 2008, 05:17:44 PM »

Yup, been there, done that too, Richard!!

$:-\$

Tim

MSP Ret · « **Reply #39 on:** February 24, 2008, 02:30:23 AM »

I shoulda known!!!....<><....

JamesIII · « **Reply #40 on:** February 24, 2008, 03:31:37 AM »

Sorry but I am not as familiar with the larger caliber Handi's. Is this underlug problem common in the larger calibers? Is there a limit to the number of rounds that can be fired in larger calibers before this becomes a problem? I do understand that the pressure in a small caliber (.223) has a different amount of total energy than that of a larger caliber at the same pressure has due to differences in total area of the brass case that is transferring that energy. I know these seem like stupid questions to you guys but, I learned it is better to sound stupid when asking questions than to look stupid in a hospital bed! JamesIII

McLernon · « **Reply #41 on:** February 24, 2008, 05:22:25 AM »

So far I've stuck to the smaller rounds and have not experienced any set-back problems. I have to believe that the power-houses have a shorter life.

Mc

stimpylu32 · « **Reply #42 on:** February 24, 2008, 06:57:40 AM »

JamesIII

So far i have put just over 300 upper levergun loads through my 22" 45/70 with no signs of a setback , also had a 450 Marlin Handi that i put over 400 rounds down range with out a problem .

I think that its more a case of some softer steel being used at times than a design flaw .

stimpy

McLernon · « **Reply #43 on:** February 24, 2008, 08:21:32 AM »

That could be Stimpy, but I think that the designers deliberately left the welds incomplete right where they are needed to support the bearing surface as Tim has suggested. But the proof of the pudding is in the eating. I would think that the strengths of materials they used would be one of the easiest things to have good controll over. I think that some of NEF design details are strange. JMO

Mc

tykempster · « **Reply #44 on:** July 10, 2008, 06:35:11 PM »

I have been warned of barrel setback. Do you guys think this is a concern with my 45-120?

I'm new to the H&R action, what am I looking for exactly, and at what point is this barrel setback dangerous?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #45 on:** July 11, 2008, 04:12:24 AM »

It can happen to any barrel, but it's more likely in the higher pressure chamberings like the 500S&W, a loose fitting barrel and poor accuracy is the result. Not a problem with a factory barrel because H&R will replace the barrel if it happens as they have in the past, but that's not an option on a rechambered barrel. You can always fix it yourself as shown in the FAQs barrel fitting info.

Tim

Ireload2 · « **Reply #46 on:** July 11, 2008, 06:49:31 PM »

Too much work for me...
Think I will find a mill and just cut off the front .25 of the lug and silver braze an over length piece of 4140 on it. Then bore a cross hole and cut it off to leave a half hole.

Fred M · « **Reply #47 on:** July 12, 2008, 01:29:30 PM »

My idea is similar to I-reload. I would mill off to the end of the pin hole.
Fit a piece of H.T. steel to the barrel and the under lug with a bevel all around
for a weld. The piece would be first clued in place with epoxy of some sort.

The hinge pin will be re-moved for milling a new seat in the glued piece.
The piece will then be spot welded with one spot at the time to prevent it form coming loose from the weld heat. Three spots would hold the piece in place for a weld in stages all around. Thee spots will do, one on the bottom and one on each side.

So far my epoxy steel is doing not a bad job on the 257 Roberts so why fix it.
Though I will do the job as above when it shoots loose again

petemi · « **Reply #48 on:** July 14, 2008, 12:52:25 AM »

A friend and neighbor of mine is co-owner of Northern Wings; they remanufacture aircraft parts. He is, and has a crew of professional welders and engineers. He does any welding I need done either free or at very minimal cost if he has one of his men do it. They did the breech plug wrench for five bucks. If I need welding done on a barrel, I'd just copy the relevant FAQs and give them to him with the barrel. The easy way out!

ctk1981 · « **Reply #49 on:** July 14, 2008, 12:06:46 PM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 11, 2008, 04:12:24 AM

It can happen to any barrel, but it's more likely in the higher pressure chamberings like the 500S&W, a loose fitting barrel and poor accuracy is the result. Not a problem with a factory barrel because H&R will replace the barrel if it happens as they have in the past, but that's not an option on a rechambered barrel. You can always fix it yourself as shown in the FAQs barrel fitting info.

Tim

I disagree with the high pressure idea. The 500S&W mag is not a high pressure round when looked in the grand view of things. For a pistol, yes this is true..but in the realm of rifles...no not really. When the 500 was designed corbon had a set of guidelines provided to them by S&W....one of them was it had to be under 50K PSI. In hodgdons reloading center the majority of the loads are in the low 40K. The 30.06, 308, 22-250, 25.06 all run anywhere from low 40K to right at 50K PSI (and then even some up to 60k)

I'd say it may have more to do with the amount of energy/recoil the gun develops. Maybe some of the metal is softer than others as one member suggested. But if the major contributing factor is pressure then just about every high power H&R/NEF owner should be worrying about this then.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #50 on:** July 14, 2008, 12:23:19 PM »

Pressure is only one part of the equation, case head thust or bolt thrust is the other that directly affects the integrity of an action. The case head of the 500S&W is .526", that's .013" larger than the belted mags based on the 300H&H. That's also why the 500S&W is an * marked barrel on the accessory barrel program, right along with the other high pressure chamberings.

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

glwenzl · « **Reply #51 on:** July 14, 2008, 04:42:25 PM »

I just ordered a new style contender barrel. the lug is welded to a stub which is threaded so the barrel will screw onto this welded lug/stub assembly. I *think* this is a BIG improvement and wish the Handi riffles and TCR could be had this way, Go to saubier.com and look under a post i made about waiting on 5mm Mag barrels, he put up a great explanation

ctk1981 · « **Reply #52 on:** July 15, 2008, 01:30:23 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on July 14, 2008, 12:23:19 PM

Pressure is only one part of the equation, case head thust or bolt thrust is the other that directly affects the integrity of an action. The case head of the 500S&W is .526", that's .013" larger than the belted mags based on the 300H&H. That's also why the 500S&W is an * marked barrel on the accessory barrel program, right along with the other high pressure chamberings.

Tim

http://www.riflebarrels.com/articles/custom_actions/bolt_lug_strength.htm

Right on Tim...I just think its a bit unfair to single out the 500 when just about every barrel over the .223 is marked with an *. I guess this could go hand in hand with choosing the right powder and appropriate charges to yield the results you need with lower chamber pressure. Good luck with the project!