Biggest game with a 45 ACP?

[HHI 812]

Veral,
Using a standard 1911 as a platform, what is the biggest game do you think a 45 ACP could take? Which weigh and design of your bullet design and load would you use for this task?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  Elk and moose, big bear in a pinch, as defense, using a 260 gr LFN kicked out with a compressed load of H110 or 296, and magnum primers, or slightly less of Accurate #9, which will light up as well with standard primers.  Play with 16 pound +or - spring to absorb the recoil, which will be slow and sluggish, not the sharp rap 45 shooters are familiar with, and pressures lower than most full power ACP loads.  The action will dirty fast as all the powder doesn't burn.  This load gives about 1200 fps, which is pretty close to magnum revolver power.

[HHI 812]

Wow Veral, didn't realize that a 260 grainer, at that low velocity, would break big bear bones. You think a 230 LFN would be enough to break bear bones at close range also? Just that I have 230 LFN , and wondering if I pushed it to at least 1200 fps also, if it would be enough to break a big bear shoulder or skull? Would that 30 grain less make a big difference? It would be easier to place multiple shots accurately, in the lighter weight, on a bouncing target coming at you.

[Veral]

  Don't get me too far wrong.  The gun and load would be minimum, and I do not ever recommend that anyone TRY to hit the big bones to break an animal down, so I'm not recommending it as a bond breaker, and most specifically I'm speaking of the shoulder joint which is just a bit less rugged than a blacksmiths anvil.  The rest of the bones, like skull, leg bones and spine aren't hard to break with the power of such a load.  In my experiance, from most angles, aiming at the shoulder joint, as is often touted by big game hunters using large rifles, the bullet will not pass through the heart lung area if it is directed to hit the shoulder joint.  As for leg bones, who knows where they are on a moving bear, or even standing one.  Ditto the spine from the side, but we all know it is in the middle when looking straight on, as in the case of an attacking bear.  Hitting it with only moderate power is instant success if the hit is forward of the shoulders.  The head isn't very hard, for such a load if hit squarely as it enters, but if at a steep angle, even rifle bullets can bounce off.

[HHI 812]

Veral,
I just got a 460 Rowland conversion for my 1911, which will easily push your LBT 230 LFN bullets to 1400+ fps. I also have a S&W 625 in 45 Colt, and have that 335 grain bullet mold you made me, that has like a WLN meplat. I have loads that can make them both have identical 100+DV's. Which would you prefer to carry in bear country? The faster lighter load, or the slower heavier load? With the faster load, I can have 8 rounds that is easily controllable and can get off the rounds quickly. The heavier load would have more recoil than the auto, but still manageable. Just curious what you would choose?
Thanks,
Dennis

[Veral]

  I'd use the one that would give the highest DV.  You are dealing with minimum power at best, but adaquate in my opinion.  Optimum DV for fastest kills and most allowance for poor bullet placement is 125 DV, so get as close as you can. 

  By most allowance for poor bullet placement I mean, a large hole that bleeds rapidly doesn't have to be through as large a blood piping system as one that chops a smaller hole.  But if DV goes over 125, bleeding slows, so kill speed decreases.

[HHI 812]

The LFN is a lighter 230 grain bullet going 1400 fps, and the WLN(.410" meplat) at 335 grains, is going 1100 fps. So DV of both loads come out to 113 DV. So is one better than the other, even if their DV's are identical?

[Veral]

  I doubt that the WLN in that light a weight would be nearly as accurate in most guns.  The WFN is my recommendation in such a light weight, and will be very accurate, but may give feeding problems in many auto, but less so than the WLN which would have the capability of being seated out farther before hitting the rifling.

  So, as far as killing punch, there is not enough difference that one could tell it, but for feeding reliability and velocity potential, the LFN gets the nod.

  I want to make something patently clear here.  ---  With all this discussion on the ACP, and my statement that it is an adaquate big bear defense gun,  I AM NOT RECOMMENDING IT!  Use it if you want, and have no better option, but the optimim would be a 44 mag or 45 LC loaded to give a DV of 125 or a bit over with bullet weight of 300 gr, with 280 gr being just fine.  (A 41 mag with full loads and 240 or 250 gr WLN will do about as well, except against large bone joints.)  If fast repeat shots are wanted, and light weight, use a S&W, which isn't so plesant to shoot with heavy loads, but it's double action is far more reliable for fast repeat shots than an auto, in my hands for sure, and I believe in most peoples hands.  If an auto jambs or misfires, one has to be very familiar with it to clear it quickly.  With the double action revolver one just keeps clicking til it quits banging.  With the above type loads, judging from field reports, one will have to be a very good and fast shooter to put more than two rounds into a bear before it is down for the count.

[HHI 812]

Veral,
Odd you suggested the S&W. I just acquired a stainless S&W 625 Mountain Gun, in 45 Colt. So in this scenario, if I got the 230 LFN fast enough for a 125 DV, and the 335 WFN "also" with 125 DV, which would you prefer? The heavier WFN at a lower velocity, yet still 125 DV, or a light LFN, at a higher velocity, and still 125 DV. Which would be your preference???
Dennis

[mcwoodduck]

With your S&W in 45 Colt you can load to the bottom end of 454 Casul or at least what 44 Mag can do as the N Frame will handle that.  Also Bullalo Bore makes some 260 grain JHP at 1,450, a 300 gr. JHP @ 1,325 and a 325 gr lbt-lfn @1,325.  The warning for thses loads is " Use only in Ruger, Colt Anaconda, Freedom Arms Revolvers, T/C Win. 1894, and Marlin 1894".  Later for the 44 Mag they talk about S&W revolvers made after 1989.  A quick E-mail to S&W about the loads will tell you if you can use these in either of you N frames. 
One of these loads will be a handful out of your mountain gun.
The 325 grain bullet douplicates 50 AE with a slightly smaller bullet.

[HHI 812]

John Linebaugh gave me some loads that he has been shooting for years, in his old every day carry gun, a S&W 25. He did tell me he upgraded to the S&W 625 Mountain Gun several years back, when it was first introduced. I was trying to find out if Veral prefers WFN or LFN, or lighter or heavier weights, if DV values are all equal. 

[K.K]

Years ago, my uncle, who was then a police chief, shot and killed a nuisance black bear of around 250 lbs with a GI spec 1911 in .45 ACP. I would not ever recomend hunting bears with this set-up, but it was done at least once. His claws (the bear's not my uncle's) now hang on a rawhide thong in camp. He was using 230 grain hardball, the only ammo that it would feed, in the only gun that he had at the time. Gotta love that grand old .45!

[Veral]

  The RN in 45 ACP will kill for sure but the wound is so tiny I strongly suggest that no use RN ammo for anything more dangerous than rabbits.

  An elderly friend of mine, who just passed to the happy hunting ground said he took somewhere in the vicinity of 600 black bears in his life.  Along with many mountan lions. These were pretty well all trouble maker critters.  His favorite guns for following the hounds were a 357 magnum S&W loaded with what he considered a hot load behind a hand swaged 125 gr jacketed SWC.  This gun was pulled when things got serious, and the most serious account he gave was with a 400 pound wounded lion. He had the gun tight behind it's ear when the hammer fell and had to drag himself out from beneath the lion.  But I wouldn't recommend such a load for any hunter.  His most used gun was a high standard 22 LR auto, which was always used if the animal was treed.  The shot went behind the ear on bears, so they'd fall with lots of flopping etc and give the dogs some excitement.  On lions he jacked the LR out and use a short, which was carefully placed "Right behind the front lag". to use his exact words.  He said the lion was alway totally uncercened about the tiny sting and soft report, and wouldn't budge until he was dead enough to fall off the limb without a twitch.

  Those aren't bear and lion guns in many peoples hands, but he chased them both for years with both and lived to 78 years when a medical doctor assasinated him with radiation to kill a little skin cancer on his cheek.  He went down just a little slower than the lions and with a lot less grace, which bugs me because my wife and I warned him forcefully against taking the 'treatment' two days before he went in.  -  I had to send that blow out in memory of him.

  Another neighbor here killed the largest black bear ever killed in Idaho up till I guess about 1970, when he was 12, with a 22 single shot and long rifle, tucked neatly up between the lower jawbones as the bear stood over him.  The bear just tipped over stone dead.  --  Maybe I'm telling you all this to make sure you never go down without shooting whatever is in your hands at whatever is after you.  Whatever gun you have will probably be a lot better than your bare fists.

 

[wgr]

seems to me that the owc bullet in .45cal 260 grain would be a good choice in the 45auto with bullets cast from ww and air cooled.looks like it would be hard on any varmint 2 are 4 legged. but on the other hand i loaded some 230grain round nose out of pure lead that should be great for 2 legged rats

[Veral]

  What seems right isn't always so.

  The OWC will not feed out of many autos, and if it does, the deep seating limits powder space too much for good killing power.  So, even if one has a gun that will feed it, speed will be enough slower that Displacement Velocity will be well below what can be had with a heavier LFN.

  As for using pure lead bullets in the ACP.  The softness will limit velocity, and likely cause leading, while giving inferior accuracy compared to a hard bullet, and velocity will be too low go get expansion anyhow.  So any notion of expansion helping kill performance is erroronious thinking, as it won't happen, and if it did, kill power will go way down, compared to a substantial flat nose like the LFN carries.