Author Topic: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida  (Read 4198 times)

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Offline seacoastartillery

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    We have sought these super rare photos of the Gordon Morgan Steam powered, Disappearing Gun-Lift Carriage installed at Battery Potter in Fort Hancock, Sandy Hook, NJ in 1892 for at least 30 years.  Mike and I visited this fort in 2004 and were able to scramble to the top of a fenced off area and look down into the empty gun pits and platform where the lifting mechanism was mounted.  Built like a section of a castle, Battery Potter was the first Steam powered gun-lift in the country and one of the first of the Endicott Period's first disappearing gun batteries.  It was also the only one ever built.  High construction costs and expensive maintenance was made even more onerous by the fact that to operate this coast defense gun on short notice, a head of steam had to be maintained 24 hours a day.  Unbelievably that was done for the entire 14 years that this battery was in operation!

Enjoy the pics,

Tracy and Mike


This photo is from the Museo at the Rockaway Museum of Contemporary Art, photographer unknown.  When we were at Fort Hancock in 2004, those shells shown were both 10" and 12" sizes.  The guns mounted in Battery Potter were 12" and others nearby were 10" guns on Buffington-Crozier Disappearing Gun Carriages of 1896.




You can see how huge this carriage is with the gun hidden in the loading position.  The carriages of nearby 12" Seacoast Mortars, Model of 1890 weighed more than 50,000 pounds each.  You can just imagine what this Steam-Lift Carriage weighed!  One million pounds? Maybe more?




Slightly awkward looking, the Gordon Morgan Disappearing Gun Carriage is certainly unique and avoids the KISS principle entirely!  These photos are attributed to www.trainweb.org and the K.Sineri Collection, photographer unknown.  These photos were found in an 1894 Gordon Morgan Engineering sales catalog along with their rendition of an 1890 12" Seacoast Mortar Carriage.











Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Josco

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2010, 11:22:22 AM »
M & T  Great info and pics, thank you.

If anyone is interested in reading about the construction of Battery Potter there's a lot of info in this online book published by The National Park Service.

http://www.nps.gov/history/history/online_books/saho/batteries_hsr.pdf


   Joe

Offline Uncle Dave

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2010, 12:35:36 PM »
Wow, talk about "reach out and touch someone".

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2010, 01:38:00 PM »
Just for clarification, the pictures are showing the mount before it's installed, right?  The whole assembly would be installed over a hole such that the base of it (the base in this case being the lower portion in the first picture) would actually hang into the hole when the gun is retracted, and then telescope up when it's deployed - the base in the lower picture being the actual base of the carriage, would be permanantly mounted around the hole?  

Really neat idea.  How fast could it deploy/retract?  Could the gun be loaded while retracted, so the men wouldn't be exposed to the enemy while reloading (obviously not if it's a muzzleloader, but it appears to be a breechloader).

Thinking about a project for after you finish the Krupps?

Offline Soot

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2010, 03:26:22 PM »
Quote
How fast could it deploy/retract?

Here's old film of disappearing guns and seacoast mortars in action, and some others.
Seacoast Artillery In Action part 1
Seacoast Artillery In Action part 2

Offline seacoastartillery

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #5 on: November 04, 2010, 05:33:10 PM »
    Thanks for the movies, Soot.  Most of them are in some form of fast motion, but actually the complete cycle time for one of the 10 or 12 inch disappearing rifles only took on average 3 minutes and it included firing, recoil to loading position, calculating the ship's next position, plotting shell impact zone, sponging, shell ramming, powder loading, closing breech block and setting primer, return to battery, traversing carriage, elevating or depressing the tube, aim checking and firing again.  

     Gulfcoast,  you are right, the lower part goes into a big hole and almost all of the tube goes down into this hole as well for the re-loading cycle, completely protected from the enemy warship's direct fire.  It's good to remember that the technology which made these guns and emplacements obsolete was the airplane, Not fancy rangefinder or more accurate fuses.  Tube artillery did not have nearly the accuracy, especially when it comes to range to give these installations any kind of realistic challenge, especially from a ship's rolling and pitching platform.  We are NOT thinking of one of these as a project for the future, No.

     Josco, thanks for that excellent online book!  Lots of good stuff there!!  BIG download, but I crammed it into the old laptop without any curls of smoke from under the keyboard.

    We tried to think of another Endicott Period artillery piece which could have been a significant deterrent to enemy warships attacking American ports during the Spanish-American war.  We came up with the one which probably caused more fear in the hearts of enemy Admirals and ordinary seamen alike, The 12" Seacoast Mortar, Model 1890 M1 on the Seacoast Traversing and Elevating Carriage Model 1896 M1.  We think photos and engineering drawings of these 136,000 pound mortars are really interesting.  What do you think?

Tracy and Mike

P.S.  Unless otherwise noted all of the diagrams and images presented here are photographer unknown and draftsman unknown, but coming from the Rican Havock website.


Note the traversing crank and the elevating hand wheel and the azimuth scale and azimuth pointer on the base plate periphery.




I really love this feature-labeled photo.  It shows the recoil control system clearly.  The narrow, rear, cylinder going down and back from the right trunnion is the hydraulic shock absorber with it's oil reservoir to the rear.  The recuperator spring set, forward, with 10, large dia. coil springs is what brings the tube up, out of the pit after recoil, refilling the hydraulic cylinders with oil from the reservoir as the tube rises.




One of the old-style 12" mortar pits with very little room for actual serving of the mortars.  By 1905 most of these had one mortar removed, so the crews had some chance of moving about the guns without colliding.  Fort Desoto, Florida.  The only 1890 12" Seacoast Mortars in the United States today are located at Fort Desoto near Tampa, Florida.




Even with one Mortar removed, the crowding during operation of these guns is evident.  3 of the 800 or 824 Lb. armor piercing or deck piercing shells are visible.  16 foot rammers were close behind.  With 65 Lbs. of nitrocellulose powder, the shell could go almost 7 miles and penetrate 6" of deck armor at that range and the recoil of the tube was 23".  In a typical early battery, with all sixteen Mortars ranged in, a rectangle 150 yards long and 100 yards wide typically held all the shell splashes.  No wonder enemy navies were concerned!!




The powerful Recuperator springs, elevating rack and elevating wheel shaft and bracket on the left of a present day Mortar at Fort Desoto.




2 gears of a 3 gear set are shown here.  The elevating hand wheel is off the photo to the right and the pinion gear is hidden under the massive cast iron frame on the same shaft that the partially hidden gear, engaged with the hand wheel shaft gear is on.




Some interesting markings.  These were all made near Troy, New York at the Waterveliet Arsenal.  The 1896 carriages were made by 4 or 5 different foundries.  Are those some azimuth graduations on the traverse circle edge?




The large pedestal in front of the carriage is the Traversing crank gearbox which transfers two-man power on the cranks though bevel, spur and pinion gears and shafts to the huge circular rack which surrounds the gun and turns the entire Mortar tube and carriage due to changes in azimuth.  You get an idea of the size of these seacoast mortars when an adult stands to the rear of the gun in this view and can look down the center of the 12" bore along it's axis.








Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline GGaskill

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #6 on: November 04, 2010, 05:52:46 PM »
We think photos and engineering drawings of these 136,000 pound mortars are really interesting.

Do you really have construction drawings or just that line drawing?  These would be an interesting subscale model.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline gulfcoastblackpowder

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Re: Steam Powered 12" Gun Installed Fort Hancock 1894 with a Range of 12 Miles
« Reply #7 on: November 04, 2010, 07:54:25 PM »
The movies were very interesting.  I'm still curious about how fast that monster steam powdered carriage could move - the others operated on gravity, using counterweights, according to the videos, which would probably be quicker than steam powered.

M&T - I didn't really think you'd tackle that carriage, though it would be cool.  Maybe someone interested in miniature stea locomotives and cannon would want to try it...I'll have to try to find such a person sometime.  I am familiar with the guns at Fort DeSoto, as I've been to that fort many times, since I live within a 40 min. drive from it.  It's always nice to see the historic photographs from it, and those mortars really are pretty huge.  I imagine the training time to put 4 crews in one pit and actually function would be impressive!

Offline seacoastartillery

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   GGaskill,    wish we had a full set of piece-part drawings for that 12" Seacoast Mortar.  Even Mike likes that piece and believes we could built a very impressive one in 1/4 scale!  Whoa, lets let someone else get all the glory for making one of those.  While a bit better than a line drawing, the assy. dwg. shown could be used to make a 'stand-off scale' model through interpolation, but certainly not an exact one.  If you ever find a set, let us know George, we will pay for half.

     Gulfcoastblackpowder,   We can only speculate on the cycle time of the disappearing, 12" gun with the steam powered carriage.  We think that the cycle time would be more, but we have no idea how much more than the recoil actuated type.  Mike and I have seen what a fully functioning seacoast artillery crew can do to facilitate quick, but accurate cleaning and loading and return to battery and firing a 6" disappearing rifle at Battery Marshall just south of Fort Point and the Golden Gate Bridge near San Fransisco, California.  They would have been about 15 minutes quicker if they could have relied on recoil energy to place the tube in the loading position.  As it was the Coast Artillery volunteer had about 15 tourist volunteers sweating in the hot August sun taking turns cranking that huge lead weight up out of the 'counter-weight well' until the carriage 'Clicked' into the loading position.  Mike even wangled a position on the crew; he was the powder man and threw those Bags up the spout with gusto!!  Slam! went the breech block, and the cute girl with nice curves tripped the lever and up that Tube went!

Tracy and Mike
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Double D

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Contact  AOP and see if they might have the plans or know where they are.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #10 on: November 09, 2010, 05:53:39 PM »


Source of the above picture is The Service of Coast Artillery (1910) by F. T. Hines and F. W. Ward, from www.archive.org as a pdf.  It's about 80 meg in color.  It covers a lot of the Endicott Period equipment.

Anyone know where the following image comes from?

GG
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Offline Soot

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2010, 11:50:51 AM »
Quote
Anyone know where the following image comes from?

This is the entire pic, click here.
Pic come from here.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2010, 12:06:57 PM »
Any idea where they got it?  I have emailed them with that question also.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
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Offline Soot

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2010, 12:40:40 PM »
I found the operations manual in PDF, lots of details. Here.
Via this site.
This book has something about them, but you gotta buy it. Here.

Offline GGaskill

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2010, 12:54:59 PM »
Looks like you can download it from the first site and save that on your own computer.
GG
“If you're not a liberal at 20, you have no heart; if you're not a conservative at 40, you have no brain.”
--Winston Churchill

Offline Soot

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Re: 12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2010, 01:21:18 PM »
You can save the PDF from, File > Save Page As.
Here is the other pic much bigger. Click.

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Just got an email message:

Someone is hunting for K Sineri (me) I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook.

  I have his email address - PM me for it.
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Tim, that is about the most obtuse a post that I have ever read.   I just re-read it for the sixth time and I believe I have it interpreted.  You tell us if I have it correct or not.  I mean you go ahead and jump right on my back and CORRECT me if I have it wrong!

     To me, your post means this:

            K. Sineri, of the K. Sineri 'Train and Coast Artillery Photo Collection shown on the www.trainweb.org web-site emailed you and wrote this, "Someone is hunting for K. Sineri (me).  I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook."

            You have to go back to the first paragraph of this thread to know what he means by this: " Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook".  His reference is to the photos he obtained from the 1894 Gordon Morgan Engineering and Sales Catalog of the Morgan Gordon Seacoast Gun and Steam Lifting Apparatus in Battery  Potter's 12" Disappearing Gun Mount used at Fort Hancock on Sandy Hook, New Jersey.  He also means that he posted the Morgan pictures on the www.trainweb.org site.
 
And finally, you wrote:  "I have his email address-PM me for it."  I take it that this means that you have K. Sineri's email address.

If I have any of this wrong, please correct me right now.

Thanks,       Tracy





Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Zulu

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     Tim, that is about the most obtuse a post that I have ever read.   I just re-read it for the sixth time and I believe I have it interpreted.  You tell us if I have it correct or not.  I mean you go ahead and jump right on my back and CORRECT me if I have it wrong!

     To me, your post means this:

            K. Sineri, of the K. Sineri 'Train and Coast Artillery Photo Collection shown on the www.trainweb.org web-site emailed you and wrote this, "Someone is hunting for K. Sineri (me).  I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook."

            You have to go back to the first paragraph of this thread to know what he means by this: " Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook".  His reference is to the photos he obtained from the 1894 Gordon Morgan Engineering and Sales Catalog of the Morgan Gordon Seacoast Gun and Steam Lifting Apparatus in Battery  Potter's 12" Disappearing Gun Mount used at Fort Hancock on Sandy Hook, New Jersey.  He also means that he posted the Morgan pictures on the www.trainweb.org site.
 
And finally, you wrote:  "I have his email address-PM me for it."  I take it that this means that you have K. Sineri's email address.

If I have any of this wrong, please correct me right now.

Thanks,       Tracy

Tracy,
You obviously gave this more thought than me.  I read this and decided that Tim had induldged in too many beers. :P
Zulu
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Offline Cat Whisperer

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Just got an email message:

Someone is hunting for K Sineri (me) I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook.

  I have his email address - PM me for it.

No beer.  I got an email (reported to moderator) that in part read "Someone is hunting for K Sineri (me) I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook."

I don't know where, why, if or how he posted the pix.

I do have his email address.  I chose not to post it to allow me to send it only to the someone he thinks wants to get ahold of more information about his posts.

If you are the person whom he thinks posted the original pix, PM me and I'll extend his offer of being able to contact him by email by sending you his email address.  It's that simple.  Read what ever you want between the lines, I'm making a simple offer.

Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
Cat Whisperer
Chief of Smoke, Pulaski Coehorn Works & Winery
U.S.Army Retired
N 37.05224  W 80.78133 (front door +/- 15 feet)

Offline seacoastartillery

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Fair enough, CW.  I am not that person who wants more info, but whoever is knows who the heck K. Sineri is by now.

Thank you,

Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Zulu

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Maybe it was me that had too many beers.  :o  Hmmm, could have been.
Zulu
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www.jmelledge.com

Offline Cat Whisperer

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Maybe it was me that had too many beers.  :o  Hmmm, could have been.
Zulu

Two points on that:  a) I'll drink to that!  ;D and b) it is the responsibility of the AUTHOR to write clearly.  If one doesn't understand the comments, the author did not write clearly enough.  Therefore, since I was perhaps cryptic, I took the responsibility to correct MY error.   ;)
Tim K                 www.GBOCANNONS.COM
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Offline Double D

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I just got the new computer set up to pull my GBO email and found a bunch of three-four week old messages.  Ken Seneri came on the board and couldn't figure out how to make a post. So he clicked on report this post icon and sent us the following message.

Quote
The following post, "12" Disappearing Gun, Battery Potter & 12" 1890 Seacoast Mortars in Florida" by seacoastartillery has been reported by Ken Sineri on a board you moderate:

The topic: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?topic=219113.msg1099192536#msg1099192536
Moderation center: http://www.gboreloaded.com/forums/index.php?action=moderate;area=reports;report=36

The reporter has made the following comment:
Someone is hunting for K Sineri (me) I posted the Morgan Gun pictures at Sandy Hook. I can't figure your (this) program out. I can be reached at ssqqdancer@aol.com for more information about my story of the gun. Title messages MORGAN GUN


That is what Tim was trying to tell you guys.

Offline brokenpole

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M&T,

After reading your post I went back and looked at the video again.  You stated that this must have been shown in some kind of fast motion video because the entire cycle took approximately 3 minutes.  According to the narration on part I at the 3:25 second time mark you can hear the narrator state that a well trained gun crew could fire 3 rounds per minute.  Like you, I still believe that is a tad fast but that is what it states.

Imagine firing that rifle with no ear protection!!!  :o  In fact, they had very little protection at all.  I wonder if they ever had any of that powder cook off with the breech open after ramming.  I bet that would ruin your day.

Thanks for posting those Soot.  ;D

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Brokenpole,   We still think 3 rounds per minute is a little optimistic, but if that's what they say, well.........

Take a look at the artillery models in the photo below.  What classic piece of Endicott Period artillery is missing from this photo, but definitely present somewhere in that class room?  Can anyone reveal the type of coastal gun carriage the largest model depicts?  We are pretty sure that this is one of the class rooms at Fort Monroe, a center of Coast Artillery Training, circa 1900.  Found this one at www.oldphoto.com

Mike and Tracy


Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Soot

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Quote
What classic piece of Endicott Period artillery is missing

The 6" Armstrong?

Offline seacoastartillery

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   Soot,  You're correct, Armstrong had 6" types very similar to this gun, but examples we have found in the United States have been 4.7 Inch.  Fort Moultrie in Charleston, South Carolina has one mounted on top of an old Endicott batteriy and we found one in the town of Newport, Rhode Island.  At Fort Pickens, near Pensacola, Florida, two 4.7-inch guns were mounted on pedestal carriages in Battery Van Swearingen and turned over to the artillery on June 29, 1898.  Today you can see similar artillery at that Fort in Battery 234 and two disappearing guns, 6-inchers at Battery Cooper. 

T&M

P.S.  Well goodness-golly, if I could read my own question correctly, maybe I would not blather like that.  No, actually I was thinking of the disappearing rifles which are iconic for the Endicott Period Coastal Artillery.  The blather refers to the 4.7 inch shield- mount gun to the left of the big one.  So, if the large model is NOT a disappearing rifle mount, what type of carriage is that?

Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling

Offline Soot

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Quote
So, if the large model is NOT a disappearing rifle mount, what type of carriage is that?

I think it's called a Barbette Proper.

There are two 6-inch Armstrong rapid-fire rifled guns (model 1898)
Located at Ft. Desoto along with four 12-inch seacoast mortars mentioned above.

Offline seacoastartillery

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     Soot,   I knew you were on top of it.  YES!  Even when the sizes started going way, way up to the 16" bore size, the barbette carriage was the carriage of choice.  It was cheaper to build than the Buffington-Crosier Disappearing Carriage and much cheaper to maintain and robust enough to stand the repeated pounding from a heavy gun.  Almost all coastal guns emplaced after 1920 were of this type or similar.  Thanks for the nice graphic too.  We like those photos with labels.

Mike & Tracy
Smokin' my pipe on the mountings, sniffin' the mornin'-cool,
I walks in my old brown gaiters along o' my old brown mule,
With seventy gunners be'ind me, an' never a beggar forgets
It's only the pick of the Army that handles the dear little pets - 'Tss! 'Tss!

From the poem  Screw-Guns  by Rudyard Kipling