long range 30-30 load?

[GEF1013]

I just picked up a 30-30 super 14 barrel for my contender what would be a good 200 to 250 yard dear load?   

GEF

[Lone Star]

250 yards is pushing the .30-30 as far as bullet performance is concerned, although deer have been take out that far with it.  Bullet expansion and hitting in the field at that distance are concerns.

I've taken deer out to over 225 yards with the 150 Ballistic Tip in a 15" .300 Savage T/C with great bullet performance, but that cartridge has a 200+ fps advantage over the .30-30.  If you have to use the .30-30 then I'd try the 150 BTip and either W748 or H322 powder.



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[NONYA]

Long range 30/30 = Oxymoron

[WayneS]

Long range 30/30 = Oxymoron

NOT NICE, and it's a good thing that all the early IHMSA shooters hitting  7 to 10 x10 steel chickens  @ 200 meters = 220 yds. with 10 " 30-30 T/C's with iron sights didn't know their T/C's weren't any good at long range.
NOW,to the posters question;
1. do you normally have 200 yd. shots ?? if so you would be better off with a rifle, as the "master trigger linkage" is the key to Max.Effective long range shooting ,espically with a hand gun.

2. How Big are these deer ? 110,170,220 Lbs. ?? this will determine how heavy a bullet you need at your T/C velocity .

3. load up some rounds with what ever materials you have, and test your ability to hit gal. milk jugs at 200 yds.                           

[BBF]

 Running this thru a ballistics program for the 130 gr Hornady SS Pistol bullet from a 14" barrel for a 2260 fps MV. Here are the results for a 200 yard zero setting:

3.7 " high at 100 yards   minus 6" at 250 yards. and 760 ftlb at that range.

Dunno if you feel happy with those numbers. I do shoot a 44 Mag at times and the ftlb wouldn't worry me with a 44 cal bullet but I am not so convinced with a 30 cal projectile.

[WayneS]

45-70, the reason i asked about animal weight was for bullet selection, the 130 gn. bullet should work on 110-150 #  deer, IF it were me I'ld use the "whisper" method and go with a 180-190 gn. 

[GEF1013]

Thank you all for the responses. Wayne the deer are Washington state mulies usually not over 175 pounds.  At least the ones I go after for the most part.  NONYA for a 30-30 250 is long range that is why I said long range 30-30 but thank you for pointing out the obvious. I do have a rifle that I use but I wanted to set the contender up for fun and just in case a opportunity presented it self.  I would hope to be under that range i am just asking if their is anyone that has any info or experience with something like this.  Thanks for the info 45-70.

GEF

[WayneS]

If you're not familuar with IHMSA, it's pistol silhouettes , I think there are a couple of ranges in your area, you can go to www. IHMSA.org and see just what is in your area, I'm sure they will welcome you, and let you 'play" so you can see what hitting something at 220 yds is like..

wayne S

[SD Handgunner]

First off if you are up to the task, shooting from a good rest, have the right optics on your Super 14 .30-30 Winchester Contender and use the RIGHT LOAD 200 - 250 yards with a Super 14 .30-30 Winchester T/C Contender is very doable.

Yes there are a lot of variables there, so I am going to deal with the AMMO for this type of shooting, and then you have to do the rest.

As per the ammo, way back in the mid to late 80's a Gun Dealer Buddy of mine was selling a pile of Super 14 .30-30 Winchester T/C Contenders. A lot of the guys he was selling these Handguns to were not handloaders, and they urged my Gun Dealer Buddy to develope a Commercial Reload specifically for the .30-30 Winchester in a T/C Contender (he also sold tons of commercial reloads in .223 Remington to a lot of these guys).

My Gun Dealer Buddy supplied all the components and did the loading, and I helped out doing the accuracy testing and chronographing. He finally settled on a load using 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with Accurate Arms #2230 Powder after trying many different combinations of bullets and powder. Over the years during all of this testing I tested this particular load in almost a dozen different Super 14 & 14" Hunter .30-30 Winchester T/C Contenders. Every time he'd get in a used .30-30 Winchester Contender Barrel he'd scope it and send it home with me (along with some ammo) for accuracy testing and chronographing.

All in all the average velocity for this load of his in all the different barrels was 2400 FPS with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic TIps. Some averaged 2375 while others averaged as much as 2450 FPS depending on the rifling twist and number of lands and grooves of the individual barrel (ie new style or old style T/C Barrels). Accuracy would range from 3/4" to 1 1/2" for 5 shots at 100 yards from the bench (shooting off of a Harris Bipod with a Sand Bag under the Grip).   

I never did take a Whitetail with this ammo in a .30-30 Winchester Super 14 T/C Contender, but did take a few Whitetails with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a Super 14 .30-30 Ackley Improved Contender, with some being farther than the distances you mentioned. However the longest shot I made with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip was out of a Super 14 .30-30 T/C Contender. That shot was on a huge ole Boar Racoon at a lasered 365 yards.

Don't sell the old .30-30 Winchester short. Given the ability to shoot higher ballistic coefficient Spitzer Bullets in a .30-30 Winchester Single Shot makes a huge difference.

Larry

PS for the record Nosler states that this bullet will expand in soft tissue down to an impact velocity of 1600 FPS.

[Lone Star]

..for the record Nosler states that this bullet will expand in soft tissue down to an impact velocity of 1600 FPS.

Yes, most BTips will "expand" at 1600 fps (or 1700 fps depending on the edition of the manual), but the amount of expansion is still minimal.    A decade ago I did some expansion testing with 125 and 150 BTips into wet newsprint (not animal tissue) and at the lowest impact velocity I tried - ~1700 fps - the bullets expanded to very slightly over bullet diameter.  So they did upset some, but tissue damage would not have been what I'd like.  Penetration of the 150 was pretty good.  Fpe of a non-expanding .308" bullet is not comparable to the same energy in a flat nosed .429" bullet.

I shot IHMSA silhouete like it was a religion for over a decade firing close to 8,000 rounds a year in practice and competition.   It made me a much better handgun hunter to be sure, but it also proved to me that just because I could hit 10x10 chickens on the ram line did not mean that I could do anything similar in the field.  Shooting creedmoor at a measured 220 yards on a nice mat isn't like the field at all.  Yes a scope helps, but the extra variables hurt too.  Most of the Kodiak blacktails I shot - of dozens - were hit within 150 yards with cartridges like the .300 savage, .35 Remington, and .25 Bullberry.  I took a very few out beyond 200 yards, but I learned long ago that it is more fun to get closer.  I got all the long range action I needed shooting at steel with handguns and rifles (550 yards) on targets that don't escape wounded when not hit perfectly.


.

[steveus]

I've read articles from SD Handgunner, and he knows his stuff.  I use AA 2230 and 125gr NBT  AND Hornady 130gr SP, and I can tell you that 200yds is NO problem on whitetails.  My factory 14" TC .30-30 barrel shoots .75" groups @ 100yds with factory 150 PP, and better with my handloads, and I'm not that good a shot.  And almost every TC .30-30 barrel shoots very well.  By the way, I just picked up some Sierra 125gr bullets but haven't tried them yet, heard some good reports though.  I love the .30-30 Contender.  Steve

[GEF1013]

Thank you all for the responses.  It seems like the 125gr /130gr bullets are the way to go, for the application that I am looking at.  At this weight what bullet seems to have performed the best on game?

GEF

[xphunter]

I think the 125 NBT would be my first choice.

[Lone Star]

I second XP's recommendation.  I've used both the 125 and 150 BTips in various T/Cs and both are accurate game bullets that expand and penetrate well.  While personally I'd prefer the 150 in a 14" .30-30, I doubt you'd see enough difference in the field to matter.

[xphunter]

I have used the 150 NBT as well on game up to elk, but I was shooting a faster cartridge (7.82 Patriot in a XP-100).   On the elk, the range was right at 300 yards.
The reason i gave the 125 grain the nod, was that at the further distances, I  believe it will have enough speed to open reliably.

[SD Handgunner]

I to agree with the recommendation of the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip. The 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip has the highest ballistic coefficient of any 125gr. .30 caliber bullet that I know of. To me this means it is going to retain a little more velocity and energy downrange, as well as shooting slightly flatter at equal muzzle velocities.

While I have not shot a Whitetail with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip out of a .30-30 Wincehster T.C Contender I have shot a few Whitetails, as have a few friends of mine with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips out of 14" .30-30 Ackley Improved Contenders at approximately 200 FPS more muzzle velocity than is possible with a .30-30 Winchester T/C Contender. If these bullets hold together at the higher velocities of the .30-30 Ackley Improved I would be inclined to think that they would also work well in the .30-30 Winchester.

The farthest shot I made on a Whitetail Buck with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip, struck the buck at approximately 1949 FPS impact velocity (1054 FtLbs of Energy). The Buck was quartering towards me at more of an angle than I thought. At any rate the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip struck the buck mid way top to bottom right behind the on side shoulder. The 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip destroyed one lung and traveled reward through the buck, exiting through the meaty portion of the off side rear ham, leaving about a 2" exit hole through the meat of the off side ham. Granted the only bone hit was a rib bone on entrance, but I felt that that was still great penetration.

In a different instance my youngest daughter shot a realy nice Whitetail Doe with the same Handgun and Load. The Doe was standing perfectly broadside and my daughter placed the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip right behind the shoulder (midway top to bottom). At the shot the Doe collapsed and was DRT. Impact Velocity was approximately 2058 FPS (1156 FtLbs of Energy). The bullet struck a rib on entrance and exit, destroying the lungs in between. The exit hole was about the size of a quarter.   

My cousin's husband over in neighboring Minnesota has also used the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip in his 14" .30-30 Ackley Improved on a couple of Whitetail Bucks, again with excellent results.

I don't know the exact specifics of bullet performance, but a really good friend of mine has a Stainless-Steel Super 14 .30-30 Winchester T/C Contender. I am loading 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with AA 2230 for his .30-30. I guess I don't remember if we ever chronographed this load in his barrel, but I do know that he has harvested a couple Whitetails at between 150 - 250 yards with the 125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with excellent results. I do know both were one shot kills, but no specifics as to bullet performance or exit wounds etc.

Larry

[Tobiano]

    VERY Interesting stuff, Gents !!!!

    GEF... if you don't mind I'll add acouple questions that are tangent here - and if you do mind I'll delete my post.

    I've been trying to decide between the 30/30 and the .223 caliber in my Contender pistol to use for cropping deer on agricultural damage permits. I know the 30/30 with handloads is up to the task - at least to the 200-225 yd. distance. How much would I be giving up if I were to use a 12" or 10" bull barrel insted of the Super 14 ?  What is a reasonable range for 150-gr. factory loads?

   Would the .223 be up to clean kills at 200, 225,  250 yds.?  What about barrel lengths for it? And what about using factory loads in it for deer. What kind of muzzle velocity does the .223 develop from the 10" and 12" and 14" barrels ?

   How do the two calibers compare for noise and recoil ?

   Right now I use a Contender in .22 Hornet for close shots and a gilt-edged, heavy-barreled .243 rifle for shots beyond 75 yds. or so. For this kind of shooting it is very important to drop the deer in its' tracks or certainly within 20 or 30 yds. And I do mean VERY important. Thus nearly always I am looking for a head or neck shot, and almost never take any kind of body shot.

  The reason I want a caliber that will enable my G2 Contender to reach out to the 200 - 250yds. type ranges is that would allow me to leave the rifle at home more often.  The Hornet is good to about 100 - 125yds. but it is much more common for me to have shots at 200 +/-.

   Again - GEF - I don't want to "hijack" your thread and I hope I've stayed close enough to your topic to interest you too. If you object just say so and I'll delete my post.

  Thanks for any help, Gents !!

    T.

[blacknwhite]

I would also be intersted to hear what kind of performance some of the members are getting from their 10" and 12" barrels. What kind of range and velocities are common? Also, how much harder is it to get longer ranges out of these shorties (and I dont mean science...I mean human error and common field shooting)

[SD Handgunner]

I have had my go round with a couple 10" .223 Contender Barrels over the years, and always went back, RUNNING BACK to Super 14" .223's.

The very first shot I fired out of a 10" .223 Contender was with Black Hills Shooters Supply Commercial Reloads. Man I was not ready for that much muzzle blast. I was also shocked at the amount of recoil. That was the end of that, I decided I needed to find a good handload. I ended up shooting 50gr. Winchester PSP Bullets with AA 2015BR Powder. This combination produce really good accuracy, but I never was overly impressed with the velocity or range.

About 10 years later I just had to have another 10" .223 Contender. This time I concentrated on 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips and used H-4198, IMR-4198, H-322 & W-748 Powders. The absolute best combination I came up with was with IMR-4198 and boy did it shoot. Velocity out of the 10" Barrel with the 40gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips with IMR-4198 was right around 2900 FPS (I'd have to look it up to be sure). Accuracy was quite good, and this load was much more pleasant to shoot, both in terms of recoil but more importantly to me muzzle blast also.

Well that Barrel didn't stick around long either before I found myself wanting a Super 14 .223, and the Stainless-Steel verison I currently have is a winner. I have only tried one load in it to date, and the way 55gr. Nosler Ballistic Tips loaded with H-4895 in Military LC Brass with Remington 7 1/2 Primers shoots I really don't see the need to look any further. Average muzzle velocity is 2820 FPS with low extreme spread and standard deviation.

I have zero experience with 12" Contender Barrels so can not comment on them. In fact I don't think I have ever handled a 12" Contender Barrel to know how they even feel.

As per shooting Whitetails on a Crop Damage Permit with a .223 Handgun, many, many shooters and hunters will tell you that a .223 out of a Rifle is not a Deer Cartridge. For the most part I agree, but under the utmost of controlled circumstances it will do the job. I generally shoot several Whitetail Deer per year while at work at the sites of vehicle / deer accidents, and will state that given the right circumstances and putting the right bullet in the right place, yes it will kill Whitetail Deer.

In regards to the .30-30 Winchester in a Contender. I have chronographed my buddies Commercial Reload (125gr. Nosler Ballistic Tip with AA 2230 Powder) in several Super 14 .30-30's and 1 10" .30-30 Contender. In the 10" .30-30 (with this particular ammo) velocity loss from the 14" to 10" Barrel was 160 FPS. I too have heard guys shooting 110gr. Bullets out of their 14" .30-30 Contenders but have no first hand experience with that bullet weight.

Good luck

Larry

[GEF1013]

Thanks to all that have responded I have taken in a lot of great info.  I love places like this were a guy can get so many options and first hand experiences to help with there own choices.  Tobiano no worries about your question I learned more with the responses.

GEF

[BBF]

In the final analysis which of these bullets to use would come doing to accuracy/ best group, I would make my selection that way.