8x57 load questions

[mountainview]

Been awhile but I am finally back to working on a 8mm Mauser load for my Yugo 24/47 (mainly for punching paper without too much recoil). I'm using Hornady 170 grain bullets for the load along with Rem brass and Win primers.

I tried published minimum starting loads using Win 748 and 760 powders but got a several misfires and wound up pulling the rest of the loads. As these are ball powders, would mag primers solve the problem?

I also tried using 39 grains of IMR 4350 (close to min published data) and this load works pretty well though the load seems to leave a bit of soot in the chamber. It is not a big deal but I'd appreciate any insights as to what the cause of this might be.

Regards,

[yooper77]

Old primers, old powder, case headspace issues all will cause misfires or firearm mechanical problems.

Are your primer pockets cleaned and primer seated fully?

Magnum primers will not help, plus they will spike pressure if it isn't part of your load data to begin with, Standard primers are fine with your powders.

A faster burning powder like IMR-4064 would suit you better in the 8x57 Mauser, your charge of IMR-4350 looks too light.

yooper77

[beemanbeme]

I'm not sure but the ball powder might be one of the culprits because of it's alledged harder to light qualities but I would also suspect the powder positioning away from the primer or thin spots in the powder column. Maybe a bulkier stick powder or perhaps a magnum primer would help solve your problems.
  I've never used any of the filler materials like capok or cornmeal or such but I'm sure there is a considerable wealth of information about it. 
 One thing you might try, start your firing sequence with the rifle muzzle up and bring the rifle down into the firing position.  Never the reverse.  Or, if you're shooting with the rifle on a rest, hold the cartridge bullet up and give it a light tap on the bench to settle the powder against the primer before loading it. 
The soot comes from a low pressure charge(s).
I'll bet if you went over in the cast bullet room, those guys could really help you as you have to use a reduced load when you're shooting a lead bullet to keep from stripping the bullet.  And there is one of the load books that has reduced loads for the various calibres.

[Lone Star]

W748 is recommended for the 8x57 with 170-grain bullets, while W760 is a bit on the slow side.  Hodgdon shows 46 grains of W748 as starting, but that is probably too light as loading density is pretty low.  With a max of 54 grains, I'd try 52 grains to improve load density and powder positioning.  For your rifle the max listed load is still pretty mild at just 48,000 cup.

If all you want to do is punch paper there are more appropriate powders.  IMR4895 is hard to beat for target and reduced loads.  Ditto Varget.  DO NOT USE FILLERS.  Those are totally unnecessary and add another potential for trouble.   While Lyman used to give data for fillers, they no longer do because there is reason not to do so.  You can solve your problem by using different, faster powders.


.

[chutesnreloads]

Got a great reduced load for a yugo mauser with 175 gr. Sierra and 12.5 gr. reddot.Very light on the shoulder and groups as good as full power loads....doesn't shoot where sighted in with the full power load though.

[Sweetwater]

Hodgdon's ran an artilce about reduced loads, and my Dad has done real well with H4895, using Hodgon's guidance, for light loads he can shoot all day in his elderly years - in his 30-06. It's a good read, but I don't know where I put it. Possibly on their website.

I'm still running power loads in my 8mm, so not sure how it might react with lighter stuff.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[PaulS]

H4895 can be safely loaded to 60% of maximum and still retain accuracy. That is on the website and in their books. I would start with a 80% of maximum and see if that is light enough for you. If not then drop it down until it is comfortable and accurate.

[Mikey]

The Speer #12 Manual carries reduced load data for the 8mm.  One suggestion is the use of 23 gns of IMR 4198 for about 1640'/sec. 

There are a couple of the newer reloading manuals that carry reduced load data.  HTH.  Mikey.

[BBF]

For the Hdy 170 gr bullet you can do a reduced load using as little as 29.4 gr of H-4895. NOTE,  H not IMR No fillers !

[cwlongshot]

For my 8mms 4064 is THE propellant.

 For years I have had excellent results with Sierra's 175 gr bullet & 4320 powder. Sporterized Mauser.
 
 About seven years back, I chopped the barrel on one rifle and fitted a light synthetic stock and LW compact Leupold scope then tried the 170RN Hornady bullet & 4064 powder. I am able to get just over 2600FPS from the short 19" bbl and sub 1" accuracy. This is one of my favorite bolt guns. its never let me down, I have a lot of confidence in this setup!!

A max load (Speed manual) of 4064 and the 170 bullet is safe in my guns.

Good luck,
 CW

[Sweetwater]

This 8x57 happens to be a little Persian Carbine - 18in barrel - sporterized in 1963 for me, by my Dad and our local Gunsmith, Bill Morrison.
I poured a lot of IMR3031 under 150's and 175's from the mid 60's into the late 90's. In the mid 80's, I started loading Nosler 200gr Partitions and BallC2 - what a combination for ELK!! A few years ago I got a buy on some bulk Remington 185gr corelokts. Surprisingly they are not as fast with BallC2 as the 200gr Noslers. At least I was surprised. At about the same time I bought a batch of H4895Extreme. Is it ever easy to use! Throws nicely (uniform), not temperature sensative, reasonably accurate and last fall I took my first Idaho whitetail with this combination. My hunting partner, an older gentleman, was awestruck at how fast the buck went down. It just plain disappeared. We got to where it "was" and it was still there, with it's legs folded under it like it was sleeping. Sure has been tasty! I've seen them fall down sideways upon being hit, but never straight down with legs folded.

Still working on further load development, but I really like that Remington Corelokt, and they were dirt cheap at the time.
My Chrony indicates that with BallC2 the 185gr Remington is only going 2360fps, SD=21fps. The same load with the 200gr Nosler gives 2420fps, SD=25fps. That shooting was done at 90 degrees, in Southern California. The same loads shot at the same range, but at 48 degrees, gave the 185gr Remington only 2320fps, SD=26fps; and the 200gr Nosler 2380fps, SD=25fps.
I don't have any Chrony information for the H4895/Remington 185gr combo....just the deer in the freezer!

I've used a couple pounds of H335, a smattering of IMR4064, some H414, a bit of IMR4198, even some IMR4350. The countless pounds of IMR3031 were always consistent and totally dependable - I just totally disliked weighing every load, and it didn't meter worth a hoot. BallC2 meters wonderfully, but isn't 'supposed' to be very good for this cartridge, and is subject to temperature changes. H4895Extreme solves that problem and appears to be every bit as dependable as IMR3031 always was, and meters well.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[cwlongshot]

IIRC they where designed for the 8mm Rem mag.

Glad to hear they work so well at the relatively low-velocity.  Personally I would do some expansion testing before I shot anymore deer.

CW

[Sweetwater]

You are totally correct that the 8mm 185gr Remington Corelokt were designed for the 8mm Rem Mag i.e. high velocity and long ranges. And for sure, it is the 'light' bullet for the 8mm Rem Mag i.e. 'light game' as opposed to 'heavy game'. Looking at the performance curves for this bullet, it simply places the same terminal velocity at a closer range. Not a problem for this hunter, and the proof is in the freezer. It for sure put that deer down and it was delicious! No blood-shot meat. No jellied meat from overexpansion. The 225gr Sierra and 200gr Noslers work for the same reason. They do their work within their ranges. The 8x57 generates the same terminal velocity, therefore the same terminal performance, as the 8mm Rem Mag, it is simply at a different range. Pure and simple physics. I've been doing expansion tests for near 50years; it's down to in the freezer or not. This one works.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[cwlongshot]

Glad to see you did your home work. Sad to say, many would not.

 I tend to get a bit anal about humane harvesting of any game animal.

 Many years back I was enamored at a 22-250 I had. I had shot it all summer long. Form paper targets and Ground hogs. To half a doz song dogs and countless pigeons and Crows across long fields on a farm I hunt. Suffice it to say, I had alot of confidence in this outfit.  Deer season rolled around. We hunted 3-4 states back then so I had lots of tags. One week about half way thru the season, we headed up to New York. I brought the same 8mm I mentioned earlier as well as that 22-250. I tagged out the first day! So I picked up a small game licence and took out the 22-250.

 I took advantage of the situation and hunted with my pop. On the last Sunday we Sat and watched a couple does in the laurel when a nice buck appeared. Pop couldn't see him for a long time and when he did he had no shot. After some time the deer began filtering away and it looked like we would not get this buck. Pop said if you get a shot just take it, I'd rather not go home with an empty handed. I got a shot, I centered the cross-hairs on the base of his neck, looking to break it and drop him where he stood. the shot was open for his head neck and shoulder. As I squeezed the trigger he threw his head back and the damn bullet caught him in the lower jaw, completely removing it from his head. Off he ran, it was on light patchy snow and we where able to follow him for some distance. We didn't get him that day, the following week end we herd thru a friend that a local kid shot the buck. There is no doubt he would have died a miserable death due to starvation. I was very bothered by this and swore I would never let it happen again.
 Right then and there I swore I'd always use enough gun loaded properly.

Had I had the 8mm, I still would have hit him in the jaw, but the bullet would have continued on thru and hit vitals. That light little bullet just didnt have the mass or stout construction to penetrate on thru.

 I know yours is on the opposite end of the spectrum, but I think you now know my conserns.

Very glad to hear that you spent the time and effort testing that bullet for your uses!! Thanks for reading my little story.

 CW

[Sweetwater]

CW- and your story, Sir, is one of a valuable lesson learned, that the rest of us should take to heart!! I grew up in Maine where 22's of any genre were not allowed for big game. Period. My Dad and Grandfather both used 257Roberts, my Uncle used a 308Win and Gramp's previous deer rifle had been a 94Win in 32WinSpl. My first was a milsurp 6.5x55 Husqvarna. My 2nd was/is the aforementioned 8x57 Persian Carbine. I really needed no more rifle, though my rack includes the aforementioned 257Roberts (both of them), the aforementioned 94Win, My greatGrandfather's 73Win, my best friend's 308W (he quit hunting), My Dad's custon 30-06 (passed to my son), a Ruger 77MKII 6.5x55 to replace the aforementioned 8x57 Persian Carbine when it's passed to my Grandson, an '86Win in 40-82, a 94Marlin in 41Mag for my son(to pair with my Ruger Blackhawks in 41Mag until he takes possesion), and a Big Bore 94Win in 356Win just because. I've always had a passion for 35 caliber. The 356W fits that passion. I also have a 35 Whelen barrel waiting for an action. It's a project for this time in my life. Nothing in particular that I need it for - just another just because.
My Grandfather always preached that you only take the shot IF you are certain that you can plant him where he stands. Enough gun with a proper shot. I've mostly adhered to that. When I haven't, I've had tracking to do, though I've never lost one, yet. Moving to Wyoming with lots of tags and a long hunting season, I got to do a lot of real world penetration testing and got a real feel for what 'having enough gun' really meant. Kinda depends on who is behind the trigger, but not entirely. One really needs a proper foundation to begin with. A proper enough gun in one hunter's hands might be only marginal for another, and totally not enough for yet another. I am a firm believer in practice, practice, practice.
Know your weapon, and know your limitations. And stay within them.

[Sweetwater]

Sort of a p.s. here-

I also admire short guns and most of mine are 20inches or less for barrel length.
My favorite antelope gun turned out to be a 14in Thompson Contender chambered for the 6.5TCU - a 223 case blown out and necked up to 264. Sort of a 6.5x45Improved, you might say. 100gr Hornady at 2500fps, not as hot as a 243Win, but a real hoot for me. Getting in close in that open country was a real challenge and I shot a lot of antelope well under 100 yards, and as close as 25ft.
That little gun was a dream to stalk with. BUT, my 8x57 Persian Carbine remains my go to for everything gun. It's smacked pine grouse, prairie dogs, coyotes, whitetails, mulies, and Elk. This Fall I hope to add a Black Bear to that list. The wife and I saw a nice bear this afternoon on a ride looking at some property. They sure do glisten in the afternoon sun! I have loaded jacketed fodder from 125gr to 225gr and cast bullets of 182gr. Mine likes it all except for the little stuff. Less than 150gr bullets tend to spray all over, so I don't use them, and really don't see a need for them. I shot the pine grouse with a 200gr Nosler! It was what was in the rifle at time!

Oh Well.

Regards,
Sweetwater

[cwlongshot]

Sweet,
 We have much in common!! We could likely spend hours swapping stories. Wish we where closer I would truly enjoy meeting you for a pot of coffee and stories of life experiences.

 I to love the "long" pistols. I have also spent many many hours at the bench with the 7mmTCU as well as the 357 Herrett.

 I haven't been out west yet, but I'll get there.

Pistol big game hunts are near and deer to my heart. I also love the Maine bear hunts. My last one was a 210Lb dry sow with my Black-hawk 45-70. Measured just over 5 and a half feet.

Mountainview, sorry for the hijack. 

CW

[mountainview]

Thanks for the comments on the 8x57 loads, very helpful.