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Offline Cheesehead

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Colt M4 makes headlines
« on: April 20, 2008, 04:14:47 PM »
By RICHARD LARDNER, Associated Press Writer
Sun Apr 20, 4:22 PM ET
 


HARTFORD, Conn. - No weapon is more important to tens of thousands of U.S. troops in Iraq and Afghanistan than the carbine rifle. And for well over a decade, the military has relied on one company, Colt Defense of Hartford, Conn., to make the M4s they trust with their lives.

 
Now, as Congress considers spending millions more on the guns, this exclusive arrangement is being criticized as a bad deal for American forces as well as taxpayers, according to interviews and research conducted by The Associated Press.

"What we have is a fat contractor in Colt who's gotten very rich off our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan," says Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla.

The M4, which can fire at a rate of 700 to 950 bullets a minute, is a shorter and lighter version of the company's M16 rifle first used 40 years ago during the Vietnam War. It normally carries a 30-round magazine. At about $1,500 apiece, the M4 is overpriced, according to Coburn. It jams too often in sandy environments like Iraq, he adds, and requires far more maintenance than more durable carbines.

"And if you tend to have the problem at the wrong time, you're putting your life on the line," says Coburn, who began examining the M4's performance last year after receiving complaints from soldiers. "The fact is, the American GI today doesn't have the best weapon. And they ought to."

U.S. military officials don't agree. They call the M4 an excellent carbine. When the time comes to replace the M4, they want a combat rifle that is leaps and bounds beyond what's currently available.

"There's not a weapon out there that's significantly better than the M4," says Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat developments at the Army Infantry Center in Fort Benning, Ga. "To replace it with something that has essentially the same capabilities as we have today doesn't make good sense."

Colt's exclusive production agreement ends in June 2009. At that point, the Army, in its role as the military's principal buyer of firearms, may have other gunmakers compete along with Colt for continued M4 production. Or, it might begin looking for a totally new weapon.

"We haven't made up our mind yet," Radcliffe says.

William Keys, Colt's chief executive officer, says the M4 gets impressive reviews from the battlefield. And he worries that bashing the carbine will undermine the confidence the troops have in it.

"The guy killing the enemy with this gun loves it," says Keys, a former Marine Corps general who was awarded the Navy Cross for battlefield valor in Vietnam. "I'm not going to stand here and disparage the senator, but I think he's wrong."

In 2006, a non-profit research group surveyed 2,600 soldiers who had served in Iraq and Afghanistan and found 89 percent were satisfied with the M4. While Colt and the Army have trumpeted that finding, detractors say the survey also revealed that 19 percent of these soldiers had their weapon jam during a firefight.

And the relationship between the Army and Colt has been frosty at times. Concerned over the steadily rising cost of the M4, the Army forced Colt to lower its prices two years ago by threatening to buy rifles from another supplier. Prior to the warning, Colt "had not demonstrated any incentive to consider a price reduction," then-Maj. Gen. Jeffrey Sorenson, an Army acquisition official, wrote in a November 2006 report.

Coburn is the M4's harshest and most vocal critic. But his concern is shared by others, who point to the "SCAR," made by Belgian armorer FN Herstal, and the HK416, produced by Germany's Heckler & Koch, as possible contenders. Both weapons cost about the same as the M4, their manufacturers say.

The SCAR is being purchased by U.S. special operations forces, who have their own acquisition budget and the latitude to buy gear the other military branches can't.

Or won't.

"All I know is, we're not having the competition, and the technology that is out there is not in the hands of our troops," says Jack Keane, a former Army general who pushed unsuccessfully for an M4 replacement before retiring four years ago.

The dispute over the M4 has been overshadowed by larger but not necessarily more important concerns. When the public's attention is focused on the annual defense budget, it tends to be captured by bigger-ticket items, like the Air Force's F-22 Raptors that cost $160 million each.

The Raptor, a radar-evading jet fighter, has never been used in Iraq and Afghanistan. For the troops who patrol Baghdad's still-dangerous neighborhoods or track insurgents along the Afghanistan-Pakistan border, there's no piece of gear more critical than the rifles on their shoulders. They go everywhere with them, even to the bathroom and the chow hall.

Yet the military has a poor track record for getting high-quality firearms to warfighters. Since the Revolutionary War, mountains of red tape, oversize egos and never-ending arguments over bullet size and gunpowder have delayed or doomed promising efforts.

The M16, designed by the visionary gunsmith Eugene Stoner, had such a rough entry into military service in the mid-1960s that a congressional oversight committee assailed the Army for behavior that bordered on criminal negligence.

Stoner's lighter, more accurate rifle was competing against a heavier, more powerful gun the Army had heavily invested in. To accept the M16 would be to acknowledge a huge mistake, and ordnance officials did as much as they could to keep from buying the new automatic weapon. They continually fooled with Stoner's design.

"The Army, if anything, was trying to sideline and sabotage it," said Richard Colton, a historian with the Springfield Armory Museum in Massachusetts.

Despite the hurdles, the M16 would become the military's main battlefield rifle. And Colt, a company founded nearly 170 years ago by Hartford native Samuel Colt, was the primary manufacturer. Hundreds of thousands of M16s have been produced over the years for the U.S. military and foreign customers. Along with Colt, FNMI, an FN Herstal subsidiary in South Carolina, has also produced M16s.

Development of the carbine was driven by a need for a condensed weapon that could be used in tight spaces but still had plenty of punch. Colt's answer was the 7 1/2-pound M4. The design allowed the company to leverage the tooling used for the M16.

In 1994, Colt was awarded a no-bid contract to make the weapons. Since then, it has sold more than 400,000 to the U.S. military.

Along the way, Colt's hold has been threatened but not broken.

In 1996, a Navy office improperly released Colt's M4 blueprints, giving nearly two dozen contractors a look at the carbine's inner workings. Colt was ready to sue the U.S. government for the breach. The company wanted between $50 million and $70 million in damages.

Cooler heads prevailed. The Defense Department didn't want to lose its only source for the M4, and Colt didn't want to stop selling to its best customer.

The result was an agreement that made Colt the sole player in the U.S. military carbine market. FNMI challenged the deal in federal court but lost.

And since the Sept. 11 attacks, sales have skyrocketed.

The Army, the carbine's heaviest user, is outfitting all its front-line combat units with M4s. The Air Force, Navy, Marine Corps and special operations forces also carry M4s. So do U.S. law enforcement agencies and militaries in many NATO countries.

More than $300 million has been spent on 221,000 of the carbines over the past two years alone. And the Defense Department is asking Congress to provide another $230 million for 136,000 more.

Keane, the retired Army general, knows how difficult it is to develop and deliver a brand-new rifle to the troops. As vice chief of staff, the Army's second highest-ranking officer, Keane pushed for the acquisition of a carbine called the XM8.

The futuristic-looking rifle was designed by Heckler & Koch. According to Keane, the XM8 represented the gains made in firearms technology over the past 40 years.

The XM8 would cost less and operate far longer without being lubricated or cleaned than the M4 could, Heckler & Koch promised. The project became bogged down by bureaucracy, however. In 2005, after $33 million had been invested, the XM8 was shelved. A subsequent audit by the Pentagon inspector general concluded the program didn't follow the military's strict acquisition rules.

Keane blames a bloated and risk-averse bureaucracy for the XM8's demise.

"This is all about people not wanting to move out and do something different," Keane says. "Why are they afraid of the competition?"

As Colt pumps out 800 new M4s every day to meet U.S. and overseas demand, the company is remodeling its aging 270,000-square-foot facility in a hardscrabble section of Connecticut's capital city. New tooling and metal cutting machines have been installed as part of a $10 million plant improvement.

Many of the old ways remain, however. Brick-lined pit furnaces dating back to the 1960s are still used to temper steel rifle barrels.

"Modernizing the plant while trying to maintain quality and meet deliveries has been a challenge," says James Battaglini, Colt's chief operating officer.

Within military circles there are M4 defectors. U.S. Special Operations Command in Tampa, Fla., was one of the carbine's first customers. But the elite commando units using the M4 soured on it; the rifle had to be cleaned too often and couldn't hold up under the heavy use by Army Green Berets and Navy SEALs.

When the M16 was condensed into an M4, the barrel and other key parts had to be shortened. That changed the way the gun operated and not for the better, concluded an internal report written seven years ago by special operations officials but never published. Dangerous problems ranged from broken bolt assemblies, loose and ruptured barrels, and cartridges stuck in the firing chamber.

"Jamming can and will occur for a variety of reasons," the report said. "Several types of jams, however, are 'catastrophic' jams; because one of our operators could die in a firefight while trying to clear them."

Pointing to the report's unpublished status, Colt has disputed its findings. The M4 has been continually improved over the years, says Keys, the company's chief executive. The M4 may not meet the exacting standards of U.S. commando forces, he adds, but it fills the requirements spelled out by the regular Army.

Special Operations Command is replacing the M4s and several other rifles in its arsenal with FN Herstal's SCAR, which comes in two models: one shoots the same 5.56 mm round as the M4; the other a larger 7.62 mm bullet and costs several hundred dollars more. Both SCARs can accommodate different-size barrels allowing the weapons to be fired at multiple ranges.

The SCARs are more accurate, more reliable and expected to last far longer than their predecessors, said Navy Lt. Cmdr. Marc Boyd, a command spokesman.

"SOCOM likes to be different," says Keys of Colt, using the acronym for the command. "They wanted something unique."

With the SCAR not yet in full-scale production, Heckler & Koch's HK416 is being used by elite units like Delta Force, the secretive anti-terrorism unit. The command would not comment on the HK416 other than to say there are "a small number" of the carbines in its inventory.

A key difference between the Colt carbine and the competitors is the way the rounds are fed through the rifle at lightning speed.

The SCAR and HK416 use a gas piston system to cycle the bullets automatically. The M4 uses "gas impingement," a method that pushes hot carbon-fouled gas through critical parts of the gun, according to detractors. Without frequent and careful maintenance, they say, the M4 is prone to jamming and will wear out more quickly than its gas-piston competitors.

"A gas piston system runs a little bit smoother and a lot cleaner," says Dale Bohner, a retired Air Force commando who now works for Heckler & Koch. "If the U.S. military opened up a competition for all manufacturers, I see the 416 being a major player in that."

The top half of the Heckler & Koch gun — a section known as the upper receiver that includes the barrel and the gas piston — fits on the lower half of the M4. So if the military wanted a low-cost replacement option, it could buy HK416 upper receivers and mate them with the lower part of the M4 for about $900 a conversion, according to Bohner.

Yet outside of Special Operations Command, there seems to be no rush to replace the M4.

Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, head of the Army office that buys M4s and other combat gear, traveled to Iraq and Afghanistan last summer to get feedback from soldiers on Colt's carbine.

"I didn't hear one single negative comment," Brown says. "Now, I know I'm a general, and when I go up and talk to a private, they're going to say everything's OK, everything's fine. I said, 'No, no, son. I flew 14,000 miles out here to see you on the border of Afghanistan. The reason I did that was to find out what's happening.'"

Sen. Jeff Sessions, R-Ala., says the troops may not be aware of the alternatives. He wants the Pentagon to study the options and make a decision before Congress does.

"Sen. Coburn has raised a good question: 'Do we have the best personal weapon?' And I don't know that we do," Sessions said. "We're not comfortable now. Let's give this a rigorous examination."
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Offline SharonAnne

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #1 on: May 01, 2008, 10:47:00 AM »
Colt HAS lost the M16 contract in the past. For a while FN was making them.
SharonAnne
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Offline Cheesehead

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #2 on: May 01, 2008, 10:50:47 AM »
Could happen again.

Cheese
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Offline S.S.

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #3 on: July 27, 2008, 03:38:42 PM »
that series of weapons should have been ended in about 1968 anyway.
To anyone who has ever used one in combat, the fact that it is a P.O.S.
is old news.
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Offline jsoukup

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 06:28:38 AM »
Colt's have always been expensive, but there are some good companies out there making and selling equivelent AR's for a lot less. I'd bet they'd love to get a piece of that contract at around $1000 a gun.

Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #5 on: October 02, 2008, 06:13:52 AM »
SS... have you fired one since 1968?

The new AR's and M4's are ineed very accurate and very reliable.  The design is very simple and effective.  I'd venture to say that nowadays, if an m4 jams, it's likely due to a magazine failure or bad ammo...
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Offline teddy12b

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #6 on: October 02, 2008, 06:35:55 AM »
In a clean nice enviroment with decent lubrication the M4/M16 is a pretty good rifle.  Years ago during a test fire in a sandy place far from home I just got done cleaning my M16 again even though it had been cleaned several times already since the last time it was fired and walked 50 yards to go fire it.  We didn't have any oil/clp and by the time I got there enough sand had gotten into the rifle to make it jam.  That was in 2003 with a new M16A4 that had less than 1000 rounds through it.

The M4/M16 has been a good and bad weapon in different situations, but after 40 years of service there needs to be some consideration to new designs & calibers.  There are better solutions, but it's a matter of will the government spend the $$. 

Offline AtlLaw

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #7 on: October 02, 2008, 07:15:15 AM »
To anyone who has ever used one in combat, the fact that it is a P.O.S. is old news.

I guess most everyone knows I don't usually criticize another person's opinion, even if it drastically differs from mine.  But darn it SS!  You have ordained to speak for me!   ::)  And the above quoted statement does  NOT reflect my opinion of the M16 or M16A1!   ;)
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #8 on: October 02, 2008, 08:43:08 AM »
The rifle has changed a lot since i carried it, but 89% confidence by the guys using it is a pretty good endorsement. A lot of the guys I hear badmouthing it were not light infantry. Its easy to love the big cumbersome rifles and bullets when a machine carries it for you.

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #9 on: October 02, 2008, 08:46:30 AM »
The closest thing to combat that civilians have is USPSA 3 gun matches. Even in the Sonoran desert (outside Phoenix) the AR15 platform rules the competition. Although I am not privy to which competitor used what make of rifle, I would be very surprised if any non AR15 platform ever finished in the top 20.
SharonAnne
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Offline cjclemens

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #10 on: October 02, 2008, 03:58:05 PM »
If only Bill Ruger had been working on the Mini-14 10 years earlier....

Offline Swampman

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #11 on: October 02, 2008, 04:08:09 PM »
If the US military had adopted the Mini-14, there would be a lot more bad guys alive today.  You wouldn't even be able to pass the 600 meter course with it.  I liked my Colt AR-15A2.  It was a great rifle.  I liked my M-16 it was good company on a dark night.   I don't like the M-4, it's too short to call it a rifle.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline GRIMJIM

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #12 on: October 02, 2008, 04:15:57 PM »
I think it's a sad day when the us army is considering buying foriegn made weapons.
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #13 on: October 03, 2008, 01:25:00 AM »
Thats for sure Grim, you would have thought they could have found some handgun made in America.

Offline Swampman

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #14 on: October 03, 2008, 01:30:02 AM »
Personally I can't think of a semi-automaic pistol made in America I'd choose.  I hate to admit that.  I do like S&W revolvers.
"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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Offline bilmac

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #15 on: October 03, 2008, 02:29:45 AM »
I don;t know much about autos, haven't found one that I like yet. Best I've shot was a Sig, but I suppose they are foreign made too.

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #16 on: October 03, 2008, 03:03:56 AM »
Anymore it's hard to tell what's made in the U.S. and what isn't.  My chevy was assembled here, but built elsewhere.  There are plenty of Honda plants around my area and that's definately helping american workers out.  Personally I dno't really care what country designs the gun, but I'd like it to be produced here.  The beretta M9/92 wasn't designed here, but it gets made here. 

If you ever get a chance read the defense tech section at militarynews.com.  They are try to cover what's happening with the M4 tests and possible replacement tests.  I'd love to hear that they're going to replace the current weapons with something better, but there's almost an impossible amount of red tape.  These newest test will more than likely just be another dog & pony show.

Offline SharonAnne

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2008, 04:30:48 AM »
we don't need to buy foreign. The M16 and M4 just need that direct impingement system to keep combustion gasses out of the receiver. That can be done as replacements as old top ends wear out and all new top ends would be manufactured with it.

Rather than continuing to shorten the 5.56 barrels we need to look at a better cartridge for FISHing. Perhaps the 6.8, perhaps the 4.6 or whatever featured on Future Weapons in that tiny H&K submachinegun or maybe the 5.7 in the FN P90.I think this last may be the best FISH weapon available.

  Chopping the squad automatic barrel off is NOT the way to go. It suffers from the same problem as the M4.

SharonAnne
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Honor the American Soldier and Sailor, the source of Our Freedom

Really, it only hurts when I breath - SharonAnne

An armed society is a polite society - Robert Heinlein

THE TREE OF LIBERTY MUST BE REFRESHED FROM TIME TO TIME WITH THE BLOOD OF PATRIOTS AND TYRANTS - Thomas Jefferson

Offline teddy12b

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Re: Colt M4 makes headlines
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2008, 06:48:42 AM »
we don't need to buy foreign. The M16 and M4 just need that direct impingement system to keep combustion gasses out of the receiver. That can be done as replacements as old top ends wear out and all new top ends would be manufactured with it.

Rather than continuing to shorten the 5.56 barrels we need to look at a better cartridge for FISHing. Perhaps the 6.8, perhaps the 4.6 or whatever featured on Future Weapons in that tiny H&K submachinegun or maybe the 5.7 in the FN P90.I think this last may be the best FISH weapon available.

Well said and I really like the idea of a AR with a piston chambered in 6.8.