New primed Fiocchi 3" 12 gauge hulls

[Mike Robinson]

This past year I purchased and loaded some 3" factory primed, clear plastic shotgun hulls. They are supposed to be primed with the Fiocchi 616 primer. My advice: don't use them if the temperature is below 60 degrees.

I first loaded them with 26.0 grains of Longshot, a Remington RP12 over a Balistic Products BPGS gas seal, and 1 3/4 ounces of nickel plated lead shot. These loads wouldn't eject from my Benelli, even at 70 degrees. I then increased the powder charge to 28.0 grains, and decided to chronograph them while patterning. I got great tight patterns of 85 to 90 %, but the velocities varied from 900 to 1050 fps at 60 degrees. When I tried these loads loads at 38 degrees, they were "squibs".

There is no comparison between the Fiocchi 616 and Federal 209A primers when it comes to firing at temperatures below 50 degrees with the slower burning (Longshot or Blue Dot) powders used in magnum shotshell loads.

In addition, the Fiocchi primers and primer pockets are about 0.004 inches larger than either the Federal 209A or the Winchester W209 (0.242" versus 0.238"), so you can't just substitute the more powderfull and consistent Federal primers. Unfortunately, I buy new 3" Federal hulls because they are constantly "on backorder".

I also had a similar problem with the Balistic Products "Multi-Hulls" made by Cheditte. The "green" hulls produced velocities similar to the Fiocchi (but not quite as bad), while the "orange" hulls were pretty good. I was told that they are the same primer, but they are not! Besides the apparent physical difference, they are also different ballistically.

Has anyone had a similar experience wiht the Fiocchi hulls?

[.45 COLT]

Have you tried it with Blue Dot? Longshot is a ball powder and harder to ignite than flake. I've used the Fiocchi 3" shells with Blue Dot for some specialized loads with no problems down to well below freezing, although I won't shoot Blue Dot below zero temps.

DC

[Mike Robinson]

DC

I have used Blue Dot for many years with 2 3/4", 1 3/8 and 1 1/2 ounce loads with Federal shells, with good results. When I bought the clear 3" Fiocchi hulls from Ballistic Products (they are about 10 miles from my home), they recommended Longshot as being a better "cold weather" powder. So I tried it. I like Blue Dot better, but it takes up more space. The Fiocchi hulls don"t have as much internal volume as the one piece 3" Federal hulls.

To answer your question, yes I tried the Fiocchi hulls with Blue Dot. I loaded the shells with 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, a RP12 wad over a 0.070 card wad, and 1 3/4 ounces of shot. I could not use the BPGS because there wasn't enough room in the hull. I fired two shells at a temperature of 55 degrees. The velocities were 1079 and 752 fps. Again, that's at 55 degrees.

The best loads I have fired with the 3" Fiocchi's had 29.0 grains of Longshot, a 0.070 card, over a Ballistic Products Flex Seal wad, an old Herter's mylar wrap and 2.0cc of buffer. These loads had velocities of 1219, 1165 and 1212 fps, but the air temperature was 60 degrees. This load averaged a 72.3% pattern at 40 yards. My Federal loads average 84.1%, and that's without buffer. Since I hate to wound a pheasant (or anything for that matter), I stuck with my 3" Federal loads while hunting in South Dakota and Minnesota.

I may have to drop to a 1 5/8 ounce load with the Fiocchi's, and use Blue Dot powder if I can't get more 3" Federal hulls. I am also going to look at the "tool" Ballistic Product's has to decrease the size of the primer pocket so I can use the Federal 209A primers. Since it relies on compressing the base wad so that the primer pocket is squeezed smaller, I am affraid that it may loose the base wad.

Mike

[.45 COLT]

One of my kids lives about 20 miles from Corcoran.

Before you buy one of those tools, try a Federal primer - the Fiocchis I bought took Winchester 209s just fine after the initial loading.

with 34.0 grains of Blue Dot, a RP12 wad over a 0.070 card wad, and 1 3/4 ounces of shot.

Maybe not a good gas seal??? I dunno.

The few that I've loaded - 100 loaded, 25 fired and 75 put away - were very consistent. They're 2.22 ounces of lead (Three .60" balls) at a velocity around 1,050 FPS. Way out of published data area, so I followed directions very carefully.

DC

[Mike Robinson]

The Federal primers seat with very little force. That is why I measured the Fiocchi and Federal primer pockets. The OD of the Federal (and Winchester W209) primers is 0.238", and the Fiocchi's were 0.242". Years ago I had a primer fall out and jam up my old Remington 1100. I don't want that to happen again.

The inside diameter of both the Fiocchi and Federal hulls is about 0.740". The OD of the RP12 is only 0.710"; that's why I use the BPGS which has an OD of 0.730" under the RP12. Thanks to the "clear" plastic of the Fiocchi hulls, I learned how the Longshot powder migrated past the wad with very little handling. The BP Flex-Seal is a two sided cushioned gas seal/wad which also has an OD of 0.730".

The BPGS/RP12 combo works great in the Federal hulls.

I'm going to pattern (and chronograph) some more loads with the Fiocchi hulls in the next week when the temperature is below 30 degrees.

[.45 COLT]

The reason I wondered about seal was that you said there was no room for the BPGS in the erratic load.

I could not use the BPGS because there wasn't enough room in the hull. I fired two shells at a temperature of 55 degrees. The velocities were 1079 and 752 fps. Again, that's at 55 degrees.

Whatever you find out, I'd be interested to know.

DC

[Mike Robinson]

In the case of using the 34.0 grains of Blue Dot in the 3" Fiocchi loads, the "gas seal/s" consisted of the 0.070 card wad and the RP12 one piece plastic wad. I have used the 0.070 card/RP12 combo in other loads with good success.

I went to Ballistic Products yesterday and bought the resizing tool for the primer pocket. The tool is made by Williams Gun Sight. It appeared to work (reduced the primer pocket so that the Federal F209A was tight) so I will load a few shells with the Federal primers for a direct cold weather comparison with both the Fiocchi and "green" Multi-Hulls. I'll post the results.

As of now, and for the foreseeable future, Federal will not supply 3" 12 gauge hulls to the handloader. I don't know what theur plans are with wads and primers.

Mike

[.45 COLT]

The 209A is the hottest primer available. It should be a natural for use with ball powder, particularly when the temperature is down.

I don't know what's happening at Federal, I just hope their parent company keeps producing powder for reloading.

DC

[Mike Robinson]

When it warms up more data will follow.

[.45 COLT]

Mike, I'll look for your data, but where you live, it ain't going to warm up for about 4 months. (I'm about 200 miles straight north of you, it'll be 5 months here).

DC

[Mike Robinson]

I did some more testing the other day when it was 23 degrees. I had to put my chronograph in my pickup with the heater going on high every couple minutes in order to keep it working. I still plan to do more testing, but will wait awhile for it to warm up.

Basically, for 1 3/4 ounce lead loads in the 3" Fiocchi hulls, the difference in average velocity between using Fiocchi 616 or Federal 209A primers using Longshot powder varied from about 25 to 200 fps, depending on the temperature and amount of wad "cushion". The loads with Federal primers were faster. The lower the temperature and/or the greater the amount of "cushion", the greater the difference in velocity. If you plan to use the 3" Fiocchi hulls for hunting at temperatures below 45 degrees, I would use the Federal 209A primers. I would also use wad over the powder that had an OD of at least 0.735". The Ballistic Product's BPGS has an OD of 0.725", and the BP Flex, X12X and CSD118 wads have an OD of 0.730". I have to more testing with the CSD118. The wad comes with an "unslit" shotcup and Ballistic Products recommends that the shotcup be slit at leat twice to 3/4 if its length. That wasn't enough for my loads. Six of the 18 shells I patterned at 40 yards had the wad go through the paper like a slug. The patterns that had a "slug" averaged about 40% patterns which means the still had about 20% (48 pellets)of the shot still in the shotcup. Each of the "slugs" hit about 15" from the center of the pattern, in different directions.

I also tried some 3" once fired Remington hulls from Midway with both the Federal 209A and the new Remington Premier STS primers. Remington claims they are good for hard to ignite powder, even at low temperatures. At 23 degrees, the Reminton's gave comparable velocities to the Federal's. I'd say that's pretty good.

As for primers I have, the OD of the Fiocchi 616 is 0.242", the Federal 209A is 0.238" and the Remington 209 STS is 0.240". The Williams primer pocket tool from Ballistic Products works great.

Now we need the powder companies to furnish some realistic reloading data for various temperatures, and with wads that have an OD which is compatible the hull ID.

I have a lot more data I could share if you're interested, but that's enough for now.

[Mike Robinson]

I meant use a wad with an OD of at least 0.725", not 0.735"

[.45 COLT]

I have a lot more data I could share if you're interested, but that's enough for now.

I'm always interested in test data.

DC

[JRSpicer426]

I had the same problem with the hulls. I called a company about their published load and they gave me a load using (hevishot) 27 grains of Longshot and 3 hevishot hulls loaded with 1 3/8 oz of HS in the 3" Fiocchis. I couldn't get the load to work with any payload lighter than 1 3/8 but did get it to work on a nice sunny day (test shells and they did work well then). Anyways I used the loads while duck hunting in Missouri this past week when it was 20 degrees during the day. I did get combustion albeit lower than advertised velocity. As soon as I burn those up, Ill be switching back to Federals.