TVM Late Lancaster Rifle at 200 yrds

[Jon in MI]

I have a TVM Late Lancaster Rifle in .54 caliber and want to compete in a 200-yard match. I’m using 777 and at 100 yards it’s very accurate (3” group for 5 shots). The problem I have is I don’t have any more front sight to file off to sight in for 200 yds. Is there a historically correct sight that is adjustable for that far or do I just have to hold over and hope for the best? BTW what time period is late Lancaster from? I would like to dress the part for the fun match. TIA   Jon in MI

[HWooldridge]

If there is some front sight now and it's on at 100 yds, can you perch the target on top of the front sight and move the rear down in your sight picture?  This is similar to what pistol shooters do at long range.

[Jon in MI]

Thanks for the idea; I just have hope for something more precise. You have to understand my background is in High Power competition and Kentucky windage is a little hard for me to accept.  Jon in MI

[Charlie Detroit]

Do you know the trajectory of your rifle/load? If you do, or if you can find out before the match, you might get lucky enough to be able to find out how much front sight to stick up over the rear sight. Or, find a higher aiming point.
There's always the option of making a rear sight leaf out of thin metal or plastic, sticking it onto your present rear sight and going at it with files, etc. 'til she shoots where she looks.

[pendennis]

Jon, can I assume that your rifle is a caplock?  If so, then the period for your "Late Lancaster" would be post-1810, since that's the approximate year of the invention of the percussion cap.

You'll need to know the rules of the match.  Some matches do not allow adjustable rear sights, so you may need to use a hold over sight picture, if you can't increase the charge enough to lower the ball's arc out to 200 yards.  Also, many matches require sights to be pre-1840 in design, and there are limitations on additions to sights.  

Usually, the matches allow for a number of "sighting" shots at the appropriate distance.  The best thing to is practice holding over at 200 yards.  You can be very accurate with that method.  Our founding fathers sure were.

PS - I've tried doubling up on the powder for my one-hundred yard loads, and that works pretty well.  However, I strictly use GOEX fffg.  I also found that 777 was very inconsistent at longer ranges.

PPS - Where in Michigan are you?  I live in the metro Detroit area.

[Charlie Detroit]

Percussion in this country didn't really come in until 1820...I think that the cap itself was patented here then, but I'm not too sure. To be safe, try to aim for somewhat later than that, since every invention takes some time to spread. Fashions didn't change in the rural US as fast as they changed in the cities or in Europe. Probably can get away with a pair of broadfall trousers (no knee britches by that time), nondescript simple shoes, a calico shirt or a plain white or offwhite cotton collarless shirt tucked in, and a bandanna around your head in Summer (in Summer, if you want a hat, it should be straw), a felt basic hat in cooler weather. Suspenders, if you need 'em, should be cotton webbing or whatever that stuff is called, with leather attachment tabs that have buttonholes. Get yourself some books if you want to go into this further, but be warned: It's habit-forming.

[Tbaus]

I used to attend the Laguna Mountain Rendezvous and shoot in various matches with various clubs in the primitive class. This class, and the Rendezvous did not allow adjustable sights, but had shots at 50, 100, and 200 yards. I took a tall, period correct rear sight and filed an upside down wedding cake type of notch for the 3 distances aligning the front blade with the bottom of the second notch for 50, the top of the second notch(also the bottom of the first notch) for 100 and the top of the rear sight for 200. I also shoot a Lancaster County rifle, circa 1760, flintlock. It took time , patience, and a lot of slow filing to get it right, but once it is done, it is done.( Besides, primitive rear sights don't cost that much if you do screw up!) I also shot this gun at the Texas State Match about 9 years ago. There is no way to simply hold under and over a target at 50, 100, and 200 yards and hope to win if the other shooters are any good. I do have Bucks County and Berks County caplocks that have  primitive looking rear sights that have a blade that can be unlocked with tiny set screws and moved up or down. I am not sure, but I think this is ok for primitive if you don't adjust it during the match as the sight is not really adjustable without first unlocking the little blades. Good shooting!

[Jon in MI]

I’m Sorry I should have been more specific. It’s a flintlock. As for the rules, it’s a fun match and they aren’t too strict but it is expected that you stay correct for the period you are shooting in. People shoot in 5 classes; early American rifleman (flintlocks), early wars (cap locks), WWI, WWII and last ditch (those that can’t get into position and shoot off a bench). It’s a 30 round match for the more modern shooters. For the muzzleloaders, you have about 20 minutes to get off as many shots and you can at a 200-yard high-power target. The competition isn’t that stiff, as the guy that won this year shot 6 points out of 300. I’m sure I can beat that, as he only hit the target once with a scoring shot.  I have a year to get ready and have fun doing it. I like the idea of the inverted wedding cake. I didn’t want to make this gun a 200-yard only as I may hunt with it this fall. I’m using 95 grains of 777 with 5 grains of 4f to get reliable ignition and an oxyoke wonderlube  .015 patch and ball.
I hope this help clear up some of the confusion.

Jon in MI

[pendennis]

Jon, for starters I would try to stay completely with blackpowder.  I've used 777 in caplocks, and I've found that it's somewhat inconsistent.  Duplexing with a flintlock seems like it would be even more so.  As you know, with any longer range endeavor, consistency of load will be the best course.

With a .54 caliber, you could step right up to ffg grade, and I would guess that at least 100 grains wouldn't be too much.  You could also use fffg.  It has the advantage of compressing better, giving more consistent ignition in the breech, and requiring somewhat less powder.  A .535 ball and a patch of .018 ticking would be plenty tight.  I use 80 grains at 50 yards, and about 100-110 grains at 100 yards.  You'll be able to use a stouter load and not worry about stripping the rifling.  A tight patch will help insure this.  At two hundred yards, the wind is a bigger factor also.  Higher velocity will help some, since the ball will be in the air less, and the arc won't be quite as high.

Be sure to use a dry patch and wipe between each shot.  This helps accuracy and reduces fouling.

Sounds like fun.  Good luck.

[Jon in MI]

Went to the range yesterday to sight in for a match and took the flintlock to give 200 yds a try. I bumped up the load to 105 grs. of 777 and 5 grs. of 4F(the duplex load is per Hodgdon’s instructions for flintlocks to insure consistent ignition). Only had a little time to shoot it but to my surprise I took 3 shots at 200 and hit all 3! For those familiar with a standard 200 yd high-power target I had a 7 at 12 o’clock and a 5 and a 7 at 5 o’clock. Then I had an accidental discharge. After I brought it to full cock as I setup the shot I touched the back of the hammer and Boom!  :eek: Hadn’t even set the trigger yet. I guess it’s off to Kenockee Tradin Post to have it looked at.  :cry: