Wanting to build (eventually) a long range AR (10 or 15?)

[handirifle]

I'm eventually wanting to build a long range AR (600 to 1000 yd) for target only.  I thought long and hard about caliber choice, 223 or 308.  Being in CA severely restricts my choices of AR receivers, but still enough to build a good rifle, I think.

I know the 308 is up to the task, and the 223 has done it, but not with the highest recommendations, from what I've read.  What about the 6.8?  Is it accurate enough for this.  The only competing, would be for fun and against myself, but have no interest to try at big levels.

What say ye fellers on caliber?

[mas19]

I have a bushmaster predator, .223. It comes with a very nice 20" heavy fluted barrel with a 8" twist.

I shoot 77gr MatchKing and Nosler CustomComp HPBT on top of 22.1grains of Varget in New Only nosler brass, Remington 7 1/2 benchrest Primers.

I have shot this gun at Sub 1moa to 600yds, and 1.5moa at a grand. In the hands of a better shooter i feel it would preform even better.

The ballistics of the 77gr are acceptable for long range performance at .362 bc.
A good .308 would only out shoot a .223 on days that wind is a large factor. There have been times when the wind has just been to great that i cant correct my windage enough to get on the paper at a grand.
The 80gr .223 HPBT is another excellent bullet at .420 bc, but i enjoy the flat trajectory of the 77gr at 2550fps avg.

A .308 with a 200gr HPBT has a bc of .565, a very nice number for a long range round.

Another suggestion that i personally would make is if you aren't totally set on an AR platform, Look into a nice benchrest gun in either 6.5 Norma or even better the .260 Remington.
The .260 is quickly becoming a favorite of mine and others.
142gr HPBT at 2450fps has a BC of .580, and amazing number for a gun under 30caliber.

Hope that helps some.

-mas

[handirifle]

mas19

Thanks for the post.

Was really only considering the AR, just to get one, before Barak Osama gets elected.  Sounds like the 223 might do it.  Since you mentioned it, could you not get a 260 barrel for an AR-10? 

Are there a lot of good target bullets for the 260 as well?

[mas19]

I would assume someone could make a .260 barrel for an AR.

And yes there are many great match grade rounds for .260 remington

My .260 is my FClass gun. Its a SAKO .308 action with a Choate stock and a custom made barrel by a Local Gunsmith.

Sierra and Nosler ( the 2 brands i shoot exclusively) both make a very nice 142gr and 140gr HPBT. Both have excellent down rage ballistics. The 142's BC is .580, which like i said before is amazing for any round under 30cal.

http://www.nosler.com/index.php?p=11&b=5&s=4&t=6.5mm
Nosler 6.5mm 140gr Is the Round i shoot, provides good velocity and will preform at  Sub 1mao out to 1000yds with a good barrel.

[handirifle]

OK thanks, food for thought.

[backstrap]

Handirifle, DPMS makes a 260 in a AR.I wouldnt think u could put a 260 barrel on a 223 lower,u would have to have a lower for a 260 so it looks like a person would be better of buying the whole rifle or building his own

[handirifle]

Yea I gotta figure out what I want to do and make a commitment.  Too many choices for me.  I even began doing some research on the Ruger Mini's and they seem hopeless for real accuracy.

Being in CA they were inviting since they were not banned.  The choice of AR's is limited as well.

[mas19]

Handirifle, DPMS makes a 260 in a AR.I wouldn't think u could put a 260 barrel on a 223 lower,u would have to have a lower for a 260 so it looks like a person would be better of buying the whole rifle or building his own

You could use a 260 barreled upper on a .223 lower. Actually what you would do is put a .260 barrel on a .308 upper. And its the same lower weather its .223 or .308.


And to handirifle. I would shy away from the Mini14, they are a great well built rifle don't get me wrong, but it WILL NOT preform like and ar15 at ALL, plus it doesn't have near the modifications.

[handirifle]

Yea, I went to the Perfectunion web site to see what all they had or could do to accurize them and it seems like a LOT of work to just get descent accuracy from them.

Time is something I do not have that much of, not for that.  I could do better with a stock Savage bolt gun for half the price.

So it will be a bolt or an AR.  I am just leary of who the next prez might be and really do not want ANYONE looking into my business more than necessary.

[backstrap]

Mas19 u telling me u can use a 223 lower for a 308 complete upper ?if thats the case y would they be makeing 308 lowers for the 308 uppers?

[mas19]

Mas19 u telling me u can use a 223 lower for a 308 complete upper ?if thats the case y would they be makeing 308 lowers for the 308 uppers?

A local shooter has a bushmaster comp lower on a wilson .308 upper barreled for .243win. Im gonna go out on a limb and say it works haha.

[Savage]

Mas19 u telling me u can use a 223 lower for a 308 complete upper ?if thats the case y would they be makeing 308 lowers for the 308 uppers?

A local shooter has a bushmaster comp lower on a wilson .308 upper barreled for .243win. Im gonna go out on a limb and say it works haha.

Ok,--------now comes the obvious question: How do you get a cartridge that has an COL of 2.625 -2.750, into a .223 AR mag, and assuming you could, how would the larger case dia of the .308/.243/260 work in the AR 15 mag? There is a big difference in the AR-10/AR-15 lower, and the mags are certainly not interchangeable.

I need to be educated here, there must be something I'm overlooking!
Savage

[BUSHMASTER1]

The AR-10 lower is much larger than the AR-15. Impossible to interchange.

[Savage]

The AR-10 lower is much larger than the AR-15. Impossible to interchange.

Yep, it was the last time I looked too. Gotta be careful about assuming what you read on the net is factual.  There is a lot of inaccurate information out there!
Savage

[SharonAnne]

the .260 remington will NOT work on a 5.56 receiver. you need an AR10. if this is for your own amusement and not registered competition look into David Tubbs 6xc cartridge. Tubbs has shot 10x at 1000 yds in competition so the cartridge can do it

[handirifle]

I know some warned to shy away from them, but after a LOT of research and questions, I bought a Mini 14, but the Target model, topped with a Burris Fullfied II, 3X9.  Only detractor is it's 1-9 twist, not 1-8 as I would have liked.

I've had it to the range twice.  The first trip was to break in the barrel and checked out some factory loads in the process.  Nothing impressive, but it did show a prefference for the 55gr loads.

Trip number two was WAY different.  I tried two different bullet weights and three diff bullets, and two diff powders.  The powders were H4198 and Varget.  The bullets Were Vmax, in 50 and 55gr weights, plus the Sierra 55gr HP Gameking.

Also I must point out that even though I spent 3 hrs there, shooting and letting it cool, I never got past 50yds.  I test loads there first, on an unproven rifle/scope setup, before I move back.  I've learned to save a LOT of money on ammo that way.  I know good groups at 50 might not be good at 200, but an excellent group at 50 has ALWAYS been better than so so groups, at least for me.  Next trip out starts at 100 and goes back from there.

My best groups were with mid level charges of H4198 and the 55gr bullets.  They produce about 3100fps and really help curb the mini's reputation for throwing cases to the next county.  After talking to my dealer, who has written many articles for Reloader magazine, I learned the H4198 has a much faster pressure spike and that it's on the down side when gas gets to the port, thus reducing the fire and fling effect on the brass.

My best groups, done twice with each load to be sure, was sub 1/4", 3 shot groups, at 50yds.  If memory serves (It's been 3 weeks now) they were CTC .248" and ,235".

The WORST of all the loads tested, second time out was sub 1/2", and that was the Varget and 50gr bullets, at about 3300fps.

I didn't make any adjustments to the harmonic stabilizer on the barrel on this trip either,it was left flush with the barrel as from the factory.  Snce it's only a 1-9 twist it will not be great past 600, but I'm OK with that.

Plus I get to use detachable mags with no worries of hassles with the MAN.

Thought I'd let ya'all know of my final choice.  In fact I love this rifle so much I may get another, non target to tinker with for a close combat version.  Lots of Mini ideas over at prefectunion.com.

[SharonAnne]

I look forward to your reports of groups at 200, 300 and 600yds.

[jasonprox700]

I think that a .260 would make sense.  The problem is the long, high bc bullets.  You may have feed problems.  The new 6.5 Creedmore is suppose to cure that.  The ballistics are suppose to be slightly less than the .260.

It might be costly, but I did see a company that makes WSM uppers.  You could get one of these uppers and neck down some WSM brass to 6.5.  This would give you velocities similiar to the 6.5-284.

If I could afford it, that would be my choice!

[jasonprox700]

Here is the link for the uppers.

http://www.ar-10-rifles.com/index.php

[handirifle]

Thanks Jason,
sharonanne
Will post them when I get to shoot.  Will be most likely next weekend.  I hope!

[SharonAnne]

DPMS uses RSAUM brass. They have a production AR10 in .300 RSAUM. They found that WSM case heads too fragile for semi auto use. Why neck down WSM brass for 6.5-284 velocity when you can chamber an AR10 in 6.5-284???

[Default]

 Ok Boys ,

I have the DPMS LR 308 AP4 set from the factory , i have a hard time seeing the standard ar 15 lower shooting the 260 remmie round .... all i have to do is place my colt ar up along side my DPMS and its a drastic difference in size from mag well to mag well.... ok done with the off subject ... Handi , brother be sure you cover you 6 o'clock on what you can get away with building in the socialist republic of california ... that said  ,my old man lives in Cali still and he mentioned his want for a AR15 .. Started telling me about some of the half ass designes out there that are cali legal , i point blank told him to save his cash and let me know when he wanted his ar and i would go buy him one  (i live in the free state of arkansas) since he plans to be moving here in the next couple years from the LA area , no reason to have a AR that is unsellable here .. Yes DPMS offers some cartridge options off of their LR 308 series rifles , 308 of course 260 remmie 243 win 338 fed 6.5 creedmoor and 300 saum ..I have thought about going with the 243 upper ... then notice it costs as much as a new ar so the 308  it is..dont get me wrong she is a very accurate rifle in the 308 offering and i have the the 16" non bull barrel model , in fact its the rifle in my pic with the buffalo ... Yes i took my first american bison with a DPMS LR 308 AP4  hahaha 

   Anywho , my main point was to let you know the dpms rifles in the LR series have left me impressed with their accuracy , reliability and craftmenship , you have a great amount of options in which caliber you might want it in.
thou you may not be able to get it legally in california .... Soooo you might be left with the Cali approved modified AR 15s that are out there in your state to build off of ... i know that alot of gun makers arent bothering with Californias BS approval process anymore , due largely in part that they have to send think it was 5 guns a year of each model they want tested for approval and the guns are forfit to the agency granting them the right to sell in that state... So you might want to invest sooner then later with the impending election

   Good luck with it and i hope my thoughts helped you out some,

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                                                                                  DOH  I jumped to reply and didnt see you got a target mini  heh ... Yeah keep us informed with those range reports ... i was thinking about it after the fact that the mini is legal in cali and even a good buy mini 14 sent to accuracy systems can be quite fruitful  ..  teach me to jump to the reply prematurely