Thinking 'bout shoulder shots . . .

[Ranger413]

I've killed several deer in my days as a hunter.  Some with a rifle and some with a muzzleloader.  But, I have a problem that I need some advise with.

Back in PA we were usually blessed with snow for the gun and muzzleloader seasons.  This made for good tracking if need be.  Now that I'm living in Arkansas I don't usually get the white stuff to help me out.  Ya see, I'm colorblind and seeing blood amongst the browns and greens becomes a little trying at times.

So, here's my thought.  I'm wondering if I should switch from shooting deer behind the shoulder for lung shots to another location.  From watching the TV shows I'm getting the notion that a lot of the hunters are shooting deer square in the shoulder.  It often appears that these animals are dropping on the spot.  

Any input on this would be great.  These are the following calibers that I typically hunt with . . . .308 Win, 50 cal Muzzleloader, and .44 Mag out of a pistol.  I'm sure with the right loading any of these would break bone and cause it to shatter into the boiler room.  Am I off base here or is this valid thinking to try an drop deer on the spot this season?

Thanks for all the input in advance.

Ranger413

[TScottO]

I usually take the same shot you do. It’s a sure kill and doesn't waste any meat. With deer at a slight angle shooting behind the shoulder is a good lung shot and sometimes the heart depending on exactly how high or low you are shooting. From my experience deer shot like this run anywhere from 15-75 yards.

However the only deer I have taken that have dropped in its tracks (all two of them) were shot square broad side and dead center through both shoulders. This is also a double lung shot. The reason they will drop shooting them dead center of the shoulder is because it takes out their running gear leaving them immobile. The two deer I have killed with this shot have tried to stand back up but are unable, usually falling dead after the first or second attempt to stand.

My dad is color blind and shoots most every deer dead center of the shoulder maybe even a little forward of center and drops most every deer in its tracks. He shoots a 25-06. If you hunt alone I would suggest buying a good trail dog. We're not always guaranteed a standing broad side shot. If not you'll probably be waiting to find the buzzards circling to find your deer. The only way my dad can see blood is if it’s still wet and shiny.

Scott

[Dave in WV]

One sure way to drop deer in their tracks is a head or neck shot. The shoulder shot is one I go for with my .44 revolver unless the deer is quite close. The shoulder shot is a good place if you break bone IMHO. For your muzzle loader and handgung I'd recommend the shoulder shot. With the .308 you might try Ballistic Tips and place them behind the shoulder. They have a lot of knockdown power. Dave

[Lee D.]

Head and neck shots are NOT sure drop in the tracks shots.  I've seen deer shat through the trachea starve to death because the hunter "assumed" he missed.  Almost no blood or hair at the point of impact.  Seen game animals with jaws and noses shot off with the same results.

[Curdean]

Have you considered looking into those small handheld gametrackers? They use heat to find the animal.  My father is also color blind and loves his.  We hunt in S.E. Oklahoma so I am going to guess that the terrain is close to the same.  I think he picked his up on Ebay for less than 100$. I hope this helps.
Curdean

[myronman3]

like dave said,  try some nosler ballistic tips.   every deer i ve shot in the heart/lung area dropped in its tracks.   they are incredible.

[Rick Teal]

When hunting with ,311 and .308 bullets, I've always tried to use fast expanding bullets loaded in the 2450-2500 fps range.  I always try to aim for the centre of the deer's carcass at the top of the heart.  Whatever is between me and that point has a bullet pass through it.

I've never had a standing deer start to run when hit with this type of load.  Running deer usually continue on a few yards until they drop.  Deer that have been high on adrenaline after being chased around have gone as far as 70 yds.

Of the commercial bullets I'm familiar with, the ballistic tip is the best selection.  The newer design is a little hard for my tastes, but even though they exit, they seem to do a good job.  

If I were hunting with a .308, I'd load 180 grain ballistics to 2500 fps.  It should be easy to work up this type of a load, but if you need one, I can provide it.

[longwinters]

I have taken shoulder shots for years.  It is always my preferred choice.  Whether through both shoulders or quartering towards me, taking the near shoulder out, the deer go no where.  There really is very little meat in the front shoulder of a normal size deer, which in Michigan is probably 90-120 lbs dressed.  I use an 06 but would have no problem using the 308.  I am thinkin that the 44 might be a little lite for my tastes.  Good luck.

long

[Dave in WV]

Lee, you are correct. A bad hit is a bad hit. I've never had a deer I shot in the neck or head not drop but then again I hit the head (not muzzle area) or center of the neck.  Dave

[Lee D.]

The problem is that inexperienced hunters using these shots figure that if the deer did not drop in its tracks that they missed.  So they don't really look to hard and if they did make a fatal wound there is almost no way of tracking one without snow and they will go for days before dieing

[TScottO]

When shooting a deer with a high powered rifle you don’t have to hit bone to put them down. Shooting a deer in the shoulder with a high velocity round turns most of the shoulder muscle into jelly. Once they hit the ground they don’t have the strength in their shoulders to stand back up and take off. They simply hit the ground and expire. It’s honestly hard to say what exactly a deer will do when shot. I’ve hit deer really solid and was surprised at how far they go. Sometimes these animals have a will to live that is unreal.

The 44 magnum is fine for deer up to 100 yards. But one must realize that handgun bullets get their energy from bullet weight more than anything else. Rifle bullets get their Ka-boom from shock imparted by an expanding bullet at a high velocity. You have seen a deer shot with a rifle and you notice it’s not unusual to see a 6”or 8” area of muscle that is pure purple and blue jelly. A handgun round will not perform that way. You will be able to eat almost to the bullet wound when shooting a deer with a handgun cartridge. You are looking for complete penetration with handgun bullets. Shoot the deer in the lower 1/3 of the body low through both lungs so they bleed out faster. If you take a lung shot higher than the lower third their lungs have to fill up with blood before you get a blood trail. The lungs fill up with blood and then over flow out of the wound channel. How far will a deer travel before you get good blood?

It’s common for rib shots to splinter bone into the vitals creating more damage but to put a deer down with a bone shot you need to take out their running gear. Shoulder/leg bone or hip bones or back bone. Average marksmen don’t shoot well enough off the bench to consistently hit something the diameter of a bone. I wouldn’t think shooting under field conditions would improve their shot placement. It would be different maybe if the bone was a well defined target but you are just giving it a gues-ta-ment of where the bone is hidden under muscle and tissue. One day when my shooting ability is good enough to consistently hit a specific bone I may change things up a bit but until then I’ll stick with the lower lungs aiming for the of off side shoulder when shooting deer.

Good luck and be safe,
Scott

[hillbill]

hey guys, seems we all agree that the shoulder shot puts them down pronto. i used to use it a lot when hubtin in heavy brush round here and on big deer i wanted down with no chance of loseing. always worked great with my 243 with 100 grn  bullets. however when i butchered these deer the amount of damage done to the shoulders was inceredible. in fact ive seen some deer that i got hardly no meat off the front quarters at all. most being just jellied and bloodshot. ive been hunting lately with a o6 in ruger no 1 but havent taken any shoulder shots with it to see about the damage. all the lung and heart shots ive taken with either rifle have always amouted to ded deer and them never traveling more than 20 yrds. however it doesnt knock them flat like the shoulder shots. anybody else have this experience on the meat damage with shoulder shots? i know a lot of people dont butcher their own deer and never see what goes on in side one.

[Silverado]

Last season I took a head on shot at a doe from around 150 yards; hit low on the shoulder and took out the heart & 1 lung. Shooting 7RemMag by the way. I found part of the bullet low in the back of the body cavity near the rear ribs. The whole front quarter of the deer was completely useless; total jelly from the foreleg thru the shoulder and the front part of the ribs. Too bad too... that was one tasty deer. :wink:

I've been thinking about something less of a cannon for the woods hunting since then. :oops:

The deer, however, did a mighty face plant and didn't go a foot from where I hit her.

[Dave in WV]

Silverado, Maybe a change to a heavier bullet or if you reload, using a lower velocity load would help.  A new rifle is always nice too. :grin: Dave

[Mikey]

Ranger 413:  I prefer a shoulder shot with a heavy for the bore bullet.  If I'm using a 308 bore (308, 30-06, etc.,) I prefer a slower, heavier bullet as it plunks on through and you can literally eat righ tup to the hole.

Yes, shoulder shots on whitetail often leave a lot of bone fragments and jelled meat but I find that to be true when you use a fast moving bullet.  That said, something like a 7mm Mag will do that, so will fast moving 'magnumized' 30 calibers with 150 grain bullets.  Slower 180s plow on through and kill the animal quickly but don't seem to destroy a lot of the meat.

Most all chest shots I've taken usually leave the animal running off for a bit - no more than 50 yards and upon field dressing I always ask how they managed to do it without a functioning heart or lungs but, they do.  The shoulder shots however take out the running gear and they drop right there.

For HillBill - a friend who was using some 180 grain Nosler Ballistic Tips that I loaded to factory velocities for his Rem 7400 in 06 experienced a lot of meat damage as those things tend to expand early on the bone structures and create a lot of damage in the process.  However, 180 grain round nose Hornadays at factory velocities got him a through and through on the shoulder of a good size buck at about 100 yds without the same sort of meat damage.

I do all my own butchering and get pretty up close and familiar with how the different bullets work, which is why I prefer certain calibers, bullets and velocities.  Sometimes it gets to the point of picking bone shards out of the tissues that are still quite edible and I still feel the most delicious Venison I have ever had came right off the hoof.  Even if the meat is jelled by the impact, it is full of blood, easy to prepare and just as tasty as the rest.

My brother has all his animals butchered but then complains about hair and bone chips and other 'stuff' in the meat.  Dog-gone if he didn't present me with some real tasty sausage once but I later convinced him to use a heavier bullet as I didn't like the idea of chompin' down on bullet jacket while eating sausage and eggs for breakfast.

In the old days, as some have said, the hunter and his family used everything from the animals they hunted and took.  I think being able to hunt is one of our greatest gifts and I am always grateful to God for the harvest.  I don't waste anything and try to be as efficient about harvesting my animals as I can.  While the English might be known for their Beef and Kidney Pie, Ole Mikey here can make a pretty tasty huntin' camp version using Venison heart and kidney, with liver and onions for a side.  Darn, now I'm hungry.  This be Mikey.

[Kragman71]

Ranger,
I've been hunting for quite a while;I was taught,as a youngster,by my Uncle.
He was a true Woodsman,a Poacher,and,a dedicated Pothunter. He had strong feelings about what a Hunter should,and should not do.
One of the things that He taught was that the shoulder shot was never a first choice. If it is your only choice,or,in your case,your best choice,go for it. I aim for the shoulder,on running shots all the time,without any regret. What MIGHT possibly be considered wrong,is maiming a deer,delibertly destroying meat,when a heart/lung shot could be made just as easily.
This is just oneMan's opinion
Frank

[Varmint Hunter]

Last year I did some handloading for a buddy's .308 win. He had purchased some 150gr Win Failsafe bullets. Although I  thought that the Failsafe bullet was unnecessarily tough for shooting Penn whitetails, I loaded them up at his request.  I watched him shoot 3 whitetails that season and was amazed at how fast the .308/Failsafe combination put them down. I spotted a large doe bedded on the edge of a swamp about 150yds away. My friend had a doe permit so I called him over to the location and let him take the shot. When the .308 went off, all I saw was that deer roll over without ever gettin up or even moving. Unbelievable.

All 3 of these deer were shot BEHIND the shoulder, and non required trailing. Personally, I'm not a fan of the .308 but these 3 kills sure were an eye opener for me. :shock: Definately no need to blow shoulder bones throughout a good deer.
VH

[Lawdog]

Silverado,

You didn't state what the load was you were using.  Sounds like either you need to change to a better or heavier bullet.  Stay away from plastic tipped bullets in your 7mm mag. as they will break up when hitting any type of bone.

Ranger413,

I had an uncle that had the same condition as you.  He used the heart/lung shot on every deer he ever shot and never lost a one that I know of.  He either hunted with someone else with better eyes or he used a little dog to follow the track of a wounded deer.  Lawdog

[Silverado]

Lawdog,
I was shooting 150gr Core Lokt factory Remington.
What weight would you recommend?
Silverado

[1GLOCK]

Usually I go for the lungs but some situations demand a shoulder shot. In your case Ranger413 Id go for the shoulder and hope to anchor that deer in place. I will do that if the pressure is high where im hunting and theres a danger of loosing a deer to another hunter or if theres a danger of it running into somewhere i dont want to go (swamps or posted areas). Generally though I do stick to the rule that "If it bites, break its shoulders. If not shoot for the vitals."

[Lawdog]

Silverado,

I don't like the 150 gr. for any size deer in either of my 7mm magnums(Remington and Weatherby), I prefer the 175 gr. bullet.  And I don't care for Core Lokts in any size or caliber.  I have had them break up before.  In magnum velocity rifles stay away from Ballistic Tips, SST's and Core Lokts.  Go to a premium bullet, even in factory loaded ammo and you won' regret it.  Lawdog