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Author Topic: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices  (Read 1724 times)

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #30 on: September 04, 2008, 05:19:40 AM »
Even the Bushnell 3200s are as good as (or better than) Ziess, Schmidt and Bender, Nightforce, Leupold & U.S. Optics IMO
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Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #31 on: September 04, 2008, 09:10:25 AM »
Why do you say that?  ex. - Capt. Jim Land, at a press conference once took a Unertl scope off a sniper rifle, drove a couple tent stakes in the ground with it, re-mounted the scope, shot it and it held zero...

can a 3200 do that?  A little off topic I know but there are times when you get what you pay for... Optics are no different... 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #32 on: September 04, 2008, 11:35:58 AM »
I think it's foolish to expect optics to do things they are not and never have been designed to do. I'll not wave the BS flag at the idea of a scope being used to hammer tent stakes as I wasn't there and suspect neither was the poster who posted that. But even if it did happen it's a STUPID expectation for a scope to meet.

Scopes are designed to take recoil from rifles, handguns or shotguns and stay in alignment and to allow you to see clearly to put the cross hair on target and deliver the bullet to that target. More than that you need a different tool to do. So long as they meet that design criteria that's all you should ask of them.

Bushnell Elite 3200s do that in spades so do the Mueller scopes I've used. I like the APV and have one I use it's a good scope without the falderall of illumination that I personally have no need for. I'd like it better if it had a mil dot reticle but the standard plex is very versatile and a good choice as well.

For a .223 I prefer a magnification range of 14X to 20X or so on the upper end. More is not generally helpful in my experience. If you get much beyond 14X to 16X on bright sunny days with temps in the 80s or 90s mirage is so bad it really limits the usefulness of those higher magnifications. Most of the time on PDs I find myself using less than 20x no matter how high the magnification dial says I can turn it up.

I really like my Elite 3200 7-21 for such use when I want a bit more than the Mueller APV can deliver magnification wise. The Bushnell Legend asked about is the Elite 3200 minus the rain guard coating. To me that makes it one super buy at the price it sells for. If they'd make it in the 7-21 I'd own several of them. For target use or most varmint hunting the rain guard coating is a non factor to me. I like it on a deer hunting scope used in cool to cold weather but during the heat of summer when I'm shooting PDs or targets it seems a non issue.
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Offline krod47nw

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #33 on: September 05, 2008, 01:54:10 AM »
Quote from: Graybeard on September 04, 2008, 11:35:58 AM
Bushnell Elite 3200s do that in spades so do the Mueller scopes I've used. I like the APV and have one I use it's a good scope without the falderall of illumination that I personally have no need for. I'd like it better if it had a mil dot reticle but the standard plex is very versatile and a good choice as well.

I really like my Elite 3200 7-21 for such use when I want a bit more than the Mueller APV can deliver magnification wise. The Bushnell Legend asked about is the Elite 3200 minus the rain guard coating. To me that makes it one super buy at the price it sells for. If they'd make it in the 7-21 I'd own several of them. For target use or most varmint hunting the rain guard coating is a non factor to me. I like it on a deer hunting scope used in cool to cold weather but during the heat of summer when I'm shooting PDs or targets it seems a non issue.


Graybeard,

Excellent point about not needing the rain guard on this type of rifle.   So if you had to choose between the legend and the Mueller with the same magnification, which would you choose?

Kevin

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Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #34 on: September 05, 2008, 04:04:44 AM »
"I'll not wave the BS flag at the idea of a scope being used to hammer tent stakes as I wasn't there and suspect neither was the poster who posted that."

Of course I wasn't there as it likely happened 10 years before I was born... I believe I read that information in one of the books I own about Carlos Hathcock, or the Marine Corps Sniper School... I'll research that and get back to you so you don't think i'm pulling this info out of my hind side...

"But even if it did happen it's a STUPID expectation for a scope to meet."

Why is that?  I agree using a scope as a hammer is foolish when you likely have a hammer nearby, but I believe the test was performed to prove how well constructed the Unertl scopes were and that after all that abuse it still functioned as designed.  Granted I would never own one myself as I have better ways to spend $2500.00... but if you lean your rifle against the tree or wall, and it falls over and hits the scope... do you trust your mueller or 3200 to hold zero?  I know I don't trust my Bushnell to do that, and I adore mine... but they have thier limitations...

I have personally looked through most of these scopes (w/ the exception of a U.S. Optics) and find them all to be superior to Busnell, Nikon, Swift, Mueller, Tasco ... with Ziess and Nightforce being the clearest optics, and the Nightforce being the most well constructed.  Granted the Ziess I shot through cost $800.00 and the Nightforce I shot throught cost 1500.00 w/ bases and rings. 

My point was to argue against the claim that the 6500 series is the "ultimate in optics".  Thats a big line for me to swallow, as if they were just that, why isn't the Military using them???  Sure Bushnell may have marketed them as "the ulimate in optics" but I feel that claim definately falls short in the grand scheme of things.  That's like saying my chevy 1500 w/ the 4.8 is the ultimate in pickup trucks... It may get me from A to B but its sure not my dream truck :)


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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #35 on: September 05, 2008, 04:48:41 AM »
Even the most expensive European scopes are no better than the Bushnells IMO.  Most of them are not as clear as the Bushnells.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #36 on: September 05, 2008, 04:51:33 AM »
I don't think so myself, but that could be the difference of the human eye also ;D

Though I will most likely stick to bushnell or leupold for any of my guns.  Price is a big factor in my purchasing abilities :D 
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #37 on: September 05, 2008, 04:56:14 AM »
I've pretty much given up on Leupold.  I used to use them exclusively.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #38 on: September 05, 2008, 05:32:37 AM »
Yeah, this isn't the artical I was talking about, but it goes to show 2 points...

1. this guy is an idiot...
2. S & B makes one hellofa scope :D

http://www.snipercentral.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=10135
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #39 on: September 05, 2008, 12:00:37 PM »
1. this guy is an idiot...

I wouldn't waste my money on one.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

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"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline cwlongshot

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #40 on: September 05, 2008, 01:42:14 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on September 05, 2008, 04:56:14 AM
I've pretty much given up on Leupold.  I used to use them exclusively.

 Leupold gets my vote, 10 times out of 9. ::)

 What happened with them for you swampy?

CW

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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #41 on: September 05, 2008, 01:45:17 PM »
They are just too dark when compared with the more modern technology of other brands.  I do like their long eye relief.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Tunaman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #42 on: September 05, 2008, 03:04:14 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on September 05, 2008, 04:48:41 AM
Even the most expensive European scopes are no better than the Bushnells IMO.  Most of them are not as clear as the Bushnells.

Come now Swampman. There are clearly better optics than the 3200. For the price, the 3200 are great optics, I am not taking anything away from them, but there are better out there. The Ziess Conquest are clearer in all light conditions and colors are more true through the Ziess. The German Ziess scopes are improvements over the conquest. S&B are as good as or better than the Ziess. Khales and Sworoski are right up there as well. For Long range shooting, Night Force are considered the king of the range for good reason. 

A 700 in 30/06 with a 3X9X40 3200 is a very balanced rig, no doubt but there are rigs that may be more capable for certian applications.
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #43 on: September 05, 2008, 03:31:21 PM »
You would think the Ziess, Khales. and Sworoski would be brighter/clearer as much as they cost.  I haven't found that to be the case when comparing them side by side with the Bushnells.  Even the Banners are as good as anything I've examined.

I've also been working with a couple of Nikons lately, and I'm impressed.

Just my opinion based on personal observation.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Tunaman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #44 on: September 05, 2008, 04:04:40 PM »
Quote from: Swampman on September 05, 2008, 03:31:21 PM
You would think the Ziess, Khales. and Sworoski would be brighter/clearer as much as they cost.  I haven't found that to be the case when comparing them side by side with the Bushnells.  Even the Banners are as good as anything I've examined.

I've also been working with a couple of Nikons lately, and I'm impressed.

Just my opinion based on personal observation.
From personal experience, I have to disagree with you. In a store with florescent light, they may appear to be similar but under real world, last light conditions, they are not the same.that  is why people are willing to shell out the bucks. It is not based on ego. I can tell you that I own several of the scopes in question, 3200, 4200, Conquest, German Ziess, Nightforce, Leupold, Burris, Nikon, Kahles. I can tell you that there is a difference and that quality often is in direct corelation with cost. I have a conquest on my 45/70 handi, some may say that that is a waste of optics. I can tell you that I do not think so because I hunt with this gun on a regular basis. The gun/scope combo shoots better than 1moa and the first shot is dead on every time. on my 22 hornet handi, I have a 3200, I do not hunt anything bigger than coy dogs with it and i can be a bit less precise. On most of my rf rifles, I have Nikons. On most of my cf bolt guns, I have higher end optics with the exception of a few that do have 3200 and 4200's on them. On my long range rifle, I have a Nightforce. 

I do not claim to be the expert that some on this site are. There are plenty of people on this site that know more than me about our sport. What I do know is that my eyes do not lie and there is a difference between scopes. For the same reason that there are so many rifles for different shooters, there are just as many scopes to choose from. I will leave you with one last question. Would you prefer to hunt a cape buff with a Bushnell  Banner or a Ziess?
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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2008, 04:28:09 PM »
There is a difference between scopes.....price!  I think my 1.5-4.5X32 Banner is brighter than any Ziess I've ever examined in the field or in the store, so if I were to use a scope on Cape Buffalo I think I'd choose it.  I don't think I've ever had a scope problem in over 45 years of shooting.  I've never spent over $300.00 on one.  I really miss this old 2.5 Tasco I sold a couple of years ago.  It was awesome.

I recently overheard a Ziess factory rep bragging on an old Bushnell Banner in his gun safe.  He said it had never let him down in over 30 years of hard hunting.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~

Offline Tunaman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2008, 05:19:11 PM »
To each his own. You do not have to hunt with my rigs and I don't have to hunt with yours. That is the beauty of our sport. I am sure that I don't kill any more deer than you do because of my choice in optics so my guess is that it is a moot point. Have a great season, I hope that you fill all of your tag.
tuna
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Offline krod47nw

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2008, 06:32:41 PM »
Quote from: krod47nw on September 01, 2008, 02:16:09 PM
I've decided to go with a scope in the 4-18 range.  As you can read above and thanks to the input from you guys.  Here are some of the scopes I am looking at in my price range.  Let me know what you guys think.   

Pentax Gameseeker 4-16x50
Meuller APV 4.5-14x40
Bushnell Legend 5-15x40
Bushnell trophy 6-18x40

Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15x40
Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15x50    These 2 are about $100 more than the scopes above, and more than I wanted to spend, but still possible.

I haven't been able to get a hands on look at the Pentax, Meuller, or legend yet, but still let me know what you guys think.

The pentax has no AO.  This is unusual for a scope of theis magnification.  How much of a problem is it?

Thanks,
Kevin




Gentlemen, ??? :-\
Although I am enjoying this discussion very much, it has been quite some time since anyone addressed my questions.  I have attached a quote above of my earlier post with the questions I was trying to get answers to.  Graybeard did give me some good input, but I would like some more from others too please.  I am very much aware that there are some really nice (and expensive) scopes out there, but the ones I mention above seem to cooperate with my eyes, and also fit in my price range, so they are the scopes I need info on. 

This will go on a 223 bull barreled Handi Rifle for target and varmint shooting.   I won't be hammering anything with it  ;) :)

Looking forward to your comments and advice about these particulat scopes (or others of similar price and performance)....

Thanks,
Kevin
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Offline Singleshotsam

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2008, 02:31:32 AM »
Pentax Gameseeker 4-16x50  - $149.00
Meuller APV 4.5-14x40 - $114.95
Bushnell Legend 5-15x40  - $179.99
Bushnell Trophy 6-18-40  - $210.99
Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15 x40 - $309.00-345.00 average price - google shopping
Bushnell Elite 3200 5-15x50 - $309.00-349.00 average price - google shopping

For the money I would buy:
 
Nikon Buckmasters Rifle Scope 4-12x 50mm Side Focus Nikoplex Reticle Matte
Our Price: $349.95 - midway usa - could prolly buy cheaper elsewhere

OR

Nikon Buckmasters Rifle Scope 4.5-14x 40mm Side Focus Mil-Dot Reticle Matte
Our Price: $289.95 - midway usa - could prolly buy cheaper elsewhere

Nikon has great light transmission and best of all (escpecially if varmint hunting) a side focus which is fantastic!

I don't know if you have checked those out yet or not... but if I had to choose off your list, I guess it would be the Meuller...



 



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Offline Swampman

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Re: Scope power on bull barrel handi? power range decided, need input on my choices
« Reply #49 on: September 06, 2008, 02:35:22 AM »
I would avoid the Pentax, and the Meuller.  The 3200s can be bought online much cheaper.
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"Brother, you say there is but one way to worship and serve the Great Spirit. If there is but one religion, why do you white people differ so much about it? Why not all agreed, as you can all read the Book?" Sogoyewapha, "Red Jacket" - Senaca

1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing  1983-1985 1993-1994

"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
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