Shots walking . . . need help!

[Ranger413]

I spent some time at the range a few days ago and threw quite a few rounds down range with my Encore .223 (24" barrel).  This was my first session using my new Bushnell Elite 4200 4-16X40mm scope.  I used some of the Winchester Vamint Pack (45gr. HP) ammo to get it on paper and adjusted at 25, 50, and 100 yards.  When I moved to the 100 yard mark I had almost one ragged hole, a 3/8" group for 3 shots.  After that 3 shot group I was highly excited to say the least :grin: .

I cleaned the barrel and shot some of the Hornady V-Max 40gr. factory loads I had.  The first shot was about 4" high.  The next series of shots worked their way down to about 2" high of the bull.  The last time I fired these V-Max bullets I was able to get a 7/8" group at 100 yards for 3 shots.  This time around this didn't happen for me.

The barrel was definately hot and I waited about 15 minutes before I fired any more rounds.  I cleanded the barrel and started my next string of 5 rounds.  Barrel was still warm to the touch.  I waited 2 minutes between shots and they were still "walking" on me.  I got frustrated with the V-Max loads and went back to the Winchester Varmint loads.  Same thing - shots walked down the paper, starting high and then dropping about an inch or two with each subsequent shot.  

I'm thinking that the barrel heating up is causing a problem here.  I had the electrical tape between the forearm and barrel to try and elimate any contact problems between the two.  I have since removed the tape and am going to try it stock my next trip to the range.

I'm thinking that my barrel has some real potential.  Heck, if it shoots 3/8" groups at 100 yards who wouldn't be happy?  I really don't want a heavier barrel as my set-up is heavy enough as it is.  And, I'm not sure if a hanger bar system or larger pivot pin is the answer.  

Does anyone have an answer?  Has anyone had similar problems.  Should I try to wait longer between shots next time?

Thanks in advance for your assistance.  I really want to love me Encore and hope that this can be solved without too much, if any, out of pocket expenses.

Ranger413

[KN]

With my 26" 22/250 barrel I have to shoot a dirty bore. After cleaning, it will do the same thing for about 5 shots and then settle down untill the next time I clean it. Then it will start 4" high and come back down in about 4 or 5 shots. Not a heat problem, It just starts out shooting high when clean.  KN

[quicksdraw45]

What good is a rifle that you have to wait 5 minutes between shots ?
I shoot 5 shot groups in about 1 1/2 minutes and they average 5/8-3/4 inch with several under 1/2
How do you rest the forend ? try resting just in front of the trigger gaurd , On one my NEF break action rifles I shot it without the forend so i could be sure it wasnt the forend(you decide if you want to try it with a encore) . break actions are very sensitive to there front rest.
What do you use for a rear rest ?Use a good rear bag.
The hanger bar system works , I use it on a contender pistol in several calibers that shoots so good it embarasses alot of rifle shooters.
I have only heard one person say that the oversize hing pin works.
Were are you putting the tape? On my NEF I use a rubber washer around the single screw lug that holds the forend on .

[Big Gun]

I have seen the same issue on a 15 inch 44 Mag Encore barrel - turned out it really did group better with a dirty bore.  After 2 fouling shots the groups would tighten up and stay there - until the next time it was cleaned.  This could be your problem - have you had a chance to shoot some more?

[Ranger413]

I'm thinking that you've nailed it on the head with the dirty bore idea.  Kinda makes sense given the results I had at the range.  I have a Ruger 10/22 that doesn't really start grouping until after a few shots.  Then it's one ragged hole.  I intend to shot next week sometime and I'll post my results as far as that session goes.  

Here's my next question . . . how hard on a barrel is it to not clean it?  Growing up I was taught, and still do, routinely clean my guns after every trip to the range and field.  Would "letting it go" be a problem?  Since my barrel is stainless steel does that afford me any additional corrosion resistance as far as not cleaning goes?  

Thanks again for all the input.  

Ranger413

[KN]

Won't hurt any thing. I still clean my barrels though, bugs the heck out of me to have one sitting in the safe dirty. I just make sure and fire 3 or 4 fouling shots if I'm going to use the rifle.  KN

[Big Gun]

Gun cleaning is a subject of much controversy, some people clean to much some too little.  I kind of base mine on how many shots I have taken and/or the range and hunting conditions always want to get any moisture or dirt out of the gun.  If I go to the range and shoot 10 shots on a calm sunny day then I will just put the gun right back in the safe without any cleaning :grin: .  There are some interesting comments about gun cleaning on Mike Bellm's web site - check it out.

[WW1]

Hi....my son used to shoot small bore competion.....now keep in mind it was 22 rimfire, but the rifle only got cleaned once a year, when the season ended....most of the shooters did the same.....the claim was it took to long to get the barrel back into shooting shape...all I can say is they shot 50 feet and 100 yds and it seemed to work for him.....Rob

[Paladin]

I have an old winchester 75 target rifle and if you run a brush down the barrel, it takes about 15 to20 rounds for it to come back to zero. the only thing I do is run a oiled patch through the bore and than a dry one. works for me.

[kciH]

It sounds to me like your first one or two shots are shooting higher as result of higher velocitites, as a result of higher chamber pressure, from leaving residue of cleaning solutions in the barrel.  It could also be that the first bullet in the pure clean bore is raising chamber pressure as a result of not having any "lubrication" for the bullet, which jacket fouling acts as, in the perfectly clean bore.  You could troubleshoot this by using a chronograph to see if you're having a big difference in velocity.  

I know that all kinds of people and gun writers tout this continual cleaning, but it's a huge waste of your time.  If you can't put at least 20 rounds through a barrel and maintain your accuracy, you should sell it.  As was stated in previous posts, you're overdoing it on the cleaning.  Just clean it up good before you leave the range, prefferably while it's still warm, the powder fouling comes out easier when it's soft.

[longwinters]

I just got back from shooting my 7M-08 (24" barrel).  This is my second time shooting it.  1st shot just low and right of the bull.  2nd shot just right and even with the bull.  3-9 shots just right and just above the bull.  6shots in about a 1.5" group.  I realize that some can shoot 6 in 1" or less . . . but I am not there yet consistently. I then made scope adjustments and ended up just above the bull with the last 2 shots in 1/2 ".  I am not going to clean my barrel and see what happens later this week when I shoot again.  In the bullets I shot  1/2 were 2.777"long and 1/2 were 2.888" long.  I did not notice any difference in accuracy between the two lengths which surprized me since I had heard that encores can be picky about OAL.  Anyway, I am wondering if the barrel does need to be less than absolutely clean or if it is a matter of settling in to your comfortable shooting mode.  Maybe after cleaning it would help to put a good coat of Rem oil in the barrel.  Just wondering?

[kciH]

longwinters,
leaving a coat of oil in the barrel, and not cleaning it out before you shoot it, will make your first shots farther off than just about anything else.  If you clean  you barrel when you're done shooting and put a thin coat of oil in the barrel for storage, which is a good idea, you should run a dry patch or two through the barrel before you shoot it.  Whats even better is to run a few patches with degreaser, like Gun Scrubber, through the bore prior to shooting.  Let the first 2-3 shots be fouling shots if you're trying to shoot for groups with different loads.

[Ranger413]

Thanks guys,

I took your advice and forgot about cleaning between strings.  The frist three rounds I fired were at 50 yards and what I considered my "fouling shots".  These printed within a 1" group.

At 100 yards my first three rounds could be covered with a nickel.  They sat dead center and about 2 1/2" high.  I moved it down 7 clicks and shot another group.  This group spread out a little bit.  I blame it on my eyes getting weary and my shoulder getting sore.  I had just finished up shooting my 209X50 barrel - about 12 to 15 rounds.

My last 3 shot group rested about 1" high and centered over the bull.  The group size was just over 1/2".  I am extremely pleased and will not be cleaning my gun as much now.  I was kinda anal about it before, but I'm not going to sacrifice this kind of accuracy for cleaning that probably doesn't need to be done.  

Thanks again for all of your help Graybeard members.

Ranger413

[kciH]

Ranger,
your second group, after adjusting the scope, could have been larger because it sometimes takes a few shots for the scope adjustment you made to be complete.  This is not the case with all scopes, but I have seen it enough times to know it can happen, even with expensive scopes with a gold ring on the end.