Author Topic: giving up  (Read 1960 times)

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Offline Alice Cooper

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giving up
« on: September 08, 2008, 06:30:45 PM »
ok, the title says it.after trying my best, i'm seriously thinking of getting rid of this contender that I CANNOT SHOOT! i've tried and tried and TRIED to shoot and like it, but ive had it.is it possible that someone can slap bullets inside of paper plates at 25-50 yards with a glock 21, kimber 1911,ruger markii,ruger old army,even a three inch s&w 60-4,but can barely keep a round inside half a sheet of newspaper with the contender?i'm talking offhand, open sights.ten inch barrels, 44 magnum and .22 match chamber.it is accurate if benched with a scope,both barrels, but with open sights and my elbows rested on the bench,I cannot predict where a round will hit! with the 44, i've run up and down on my bullet weights, powder charges,lubes,alloys, etc. off and on for over TEN YEARS,  and for some reason I cannot shoot this contender.I don't just shoot once or twice a year, i'm a range officer and shoot something most every saturday and sunday. I fought trying to keep 20 rounds inside a paper plate at 25 yards sunday.I got FOUR inside the plate! just before I left, I pulled out the glock 21 and put 12 of 13 rounds in the plate easily,and not taking my time.do some folks just have no ability to shoot certain handguns or what! this contender set is sure starting to look like a new redhawk to me.... :'(
don't fry bacon naked!

Offline Keith L

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Re: giving up
« Reply #1 on: September 08, 2008, 07:53:42 PM »
Sorry you are having trouble.  Your post is interesting in that you say it is accurate with a scope and from the bench, but not when you are shooting offhand.  That statement eliminates the gun, doesn't it, and indicates you are having trouble holding it.  Perhaps it is just to heavy for you, or the grip angle is wrong, or who knows.  Have you tried it with the scope and offhand?  I frequently shoot all of mine that way with good results.

Have another pistol shooter watch you shoot your Contender.  Perhaps you are flinching.  Perhaps the trigger is hard and you are pulling it off target, but you should be doing that from the bench as well.

Good luck, and tell us what you find.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline Ladobe

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Re: giving up
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2008, 08:51:45 PM »
As Keith said, it's definitely not the Contender since it shoots fine scoped off a bench... UNLESS there is a problem with the open sights themselves (assuming if you can hold a good sight picture with a semi-auto, you can with any other handgun as well).   Fit to your hand, shooting technique, your grip and stance, follow through or just plain attitude is more likely your problem.   Contenders are inherently very accurate, even with factory barrels.   Your 44 gives up some yardage being only a 10", but it should still be good to go out to 100 yards anyway even with open sights.

There is a right way to shoot Contenders just like there is a right way to shoot semi-autos, single action or double action revolvers for each individual person.   IOW, the technique that works best for one will probably not be the same for all of them.   And the same technique may or may not work for everybody.   Experiment - see what works best for you with the Contender IOW.

I regularly shoot all my Contenders offhand, from 17 rimfires to true handcannon wildcats, and have no problem shooting any of them very well a heck of a lot further than 50 yards - some of them I won't say how far (yes, offhand). 

Keith's suggestion of having another "experienced" handgun shooter watch you shoot the Contender offhand is a good one.    They might see something right off to help you.

Or, just get the Redhawk if you've given up since attitude can easily make or break your shooting.

Luck whatever you do.
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline bearmgc

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Re: giving up
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 08:58:20 AM »
I've gone through the same experience exactly like you described, and am defeated. I just love the idea of the Contender, but I think I just don't have the arm strength to hold steady. I'm a woman, used to shooting the 444Marlin and 12Ga shotgun with no problem. I'm ready to sell or trade my rig for another lever gun. Yes, it breaks my heart. Good luck with your decision.

Offline skb2706

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Re: giving up
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 09:07:53 AM »
With any luck, for each person that gives up that should put additional barrels on the market whereby reducing the prices. I can only hope.
Shooting a Contender in handgun form offhand is not for everyone. If it were me I'd consider a stock set and carbine barrel before I gave up on the whole concept...but when you give up on that let me know.

Offline bearmgc

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Re: giving up
« Reply #5 on: September 09, 2008, 09:23:38 AM »
I thought of that, thanks. But considering the cost of a carbine barrel, which are generally more than the handgun barrels, then money lost on purchase of the handgun barrel, money lost on purchase of grips, forends, holster, to resell at a reduced price. Then buy the forend, barrel and carbine stock, oboy. Might as well sell the rig discounted or trade for a rifle. I'm not exactly rich.

Offline halfslow

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Re: giving up
« Reply #6 on: September 09, 2008, 02:47:42 PM »
I'm not going to try to talk you out of selling the contender, but thought you might be interested in my experience.
I bought one when they came with the 44 mag in the light octagon barrels.
I could not shoot it.  But I did try.  The recoil was punishing to the point that it affected my shooting with all handguns.
I traded the 44 mag barrel for a 22 hornet.  Still couldn't hit much, but it was much more pleasant to shoot.
Started going to the range with a friend at lunch.  He would load the gun for me and I would try to shoot it like the books say: sight picture, squeeze etc.
Sometimes it was loaded, sometimes it was empty.
It took a while, but I finally got over that terrible flinch I got with the 44 mag.
I never became a great offhand shot with any pistol, but enjoy the versatile contender when I use it within my limitations.


Offline Alice Cooper

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Re: giving up
« Reply #7 on: September 09, 2008, 03:30:25 PM »
I just seems i'm doing something wrong, cause you're right,with a scope on it,benched,it's accurate,and the .22 match barrel will make one ragged hole with the old cheap federal champion rounds.I really concentrate on eliminating that horrid flinch, but I may have it even knowing it's a factor i'm watching for.I can do much better with the 3 inch smith !maybe it's like the person that can do anything but swim.I can shoot anything but a contender.dang it, and I have the contender belt buckle on my pants! how embarrassing is that!
don't fry bacon naked!

Offline bearmgc

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Re: giving up
« Reply #8 on: September 09, 2008, 03:41:24 PM »
SKB, I'm going with your suggestion, and will try to trade my barrel for a carbine length, in anything that I can use for hunting deer with factory ammo. What the heck. Its still a beautiful set up, nice to look at. Suppose that's not necessarliy a criteria for some.

Offline hunterspistol

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Re: giving up
« Reply #9 on: September 09, 2008, 05:51:47 PM »
     Recently I got the urge to shoot open sights with contender and .22 long rifle. Here's what I did- I stand with my left shoulder forward about 30 degrees to the silhouette.  I grip with my right hand, but lightly  so as not to introduce tremble.  I wrap my left hand around the right finger with my left index finger alongside the forend. Ya'll know the drill, point to shoot.  I come down on the target while exhaling slowly and shoot from the left sight picture with both eyes open.

But if you're running a stiff trigger its going to pull the shot off to the right about 18 inches!!! 

 I feel for you if you're giving up on the Contender, I love mine so dearly.
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Offline Ladobe

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Re: giving up
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2008, 08:54:23 PM »
...   I feel for you if you're giving up on the Contender, I love mine so dearly.

Ditto that!   I'd give up my wife of almost 35 years before I'd give up my Contenders (married her a few months after I got my first Contender in 1968).   Wait, that doesn't work... I did give her up about 6 years ago.   ::)    Point is, I really hate to see anyone give up on what I know from long experience is a great shooting system.   Wish I could get you on a range for an hour AC... your problem would be solved and you would finally love your Contender.   Any chance where you live there is any IHMSA matches at a local range?   Lots of those shooters use Contender/Encore platforms, they are usually a very friendly group and I'd bet they could help you out.   Just a thought.

Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline skb2706

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Re: giving up
« Reply #11 on: September 10, 2008, 03:48:11 AM »
SKB, I'm going with your suggestion, and will try to trade my barrel for a carbine length, in anything that I can use for hunting deer with factory ammo. What the heck. Its still a beautiful set up, nice to look at. Suppose that's not necessarliy a criteria for some.

Its been my experience that if you hold out for the best price you can recoop most of the money you have invested in barrels, grips and such. So making the transition to a carbine isn't quite as painful. Then you need to watch the classifieds and find the right stock set, barrel you want.

Offline Alice Cooper

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Re: giving up
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2008, 02:30:07 PM »
maybe if I switch out this horrid factory black-plastic grip for something else?yall are making me feel bad about selling out! I am a range officer, so I have a key to the range and have my own steel plate I shoot at 50 yards with an old model blackhawk...how I wish the contender shot like that old gun! ok, i'll get the bullet mold out again,and try some more,starting with some 44 specials,and switch from the fire sight back to the original irons... BUT THIS IS THE LAST TIME...he says once again.... :-\
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Offline SD Handgunner

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Re: giving up
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2008, 09:40:37 AM »
maybe if I switch out this horrid factory black-plastic grip for something else?

Now yer talking. Grips can and do make a huge difference in Handgun Shooting. I guess if it were me the first thing I would do is pick up a Pachmayr Grip. Pachmayr makes a few different styles of grips for the original Contender, from the Presentation to the Gripper to a Decelerator Gripper both with finger grooves. There are also several different styles of Walnut Grips for the original Contender.

I've always been of the opinion if the Handgun is not comfortable and does not fit your hand you are not going to shoot it good, especially off hand.

Good luck.

Larry
T/C Handguns, one good shot for your moment of truth !

Offline flyfisher

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Re: giving up
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2008, 05:39:04 PM »
I am fairly baffled at the problem at hand.  I am by no means a fine pistol shot...but I'm not the world's worst either.  Out of all of my handguns (revolvers, semi-autos, and the T/C) I have always found the Contender to be the most accurate to shoot and also the easiest for me to shoot offhand.  I have only 14" barrels in the pistol setup, and I love the longer distance between the sights.  I can remember the first time I picked the old girl up...borrowed it off of an old-time friend who wanted to sell.  Took her to my father-in-law's house and went on a morning to mid-afternoon groundhog hunt.  That .222 Remington hit hogs anywhere from 5 yards up to over 50 yards...9 shots, 9 dead hogs.  All with open sights, and all free hand.  I was instantly in love, bought it off of him, and never looked back.  I will admit that the 14" barrel is a lot heavier and more awkward to hold off hand than other pistols, but I love the way it shoots.  Whatever you do, keep on trying.  Nothing irritates me more than trying something and failing, and I imagine that you are the same way (since you've been trying for quite a long time now).  Change those grips and keep on shooting!!

There is another option, though...sell me the Contender for, Oh, say...$100??????
How'd you like a peek at my 14-incher? (Contender, that is)

Offline smong2000

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Re: giving up - Me too!
« Reply #15 on: September 12, 2008, 07:59:04 AM »
This post really rings a bell for me as well.  ;) Just got into an Encore 7-08, scoped with Pachmyer grips early summer and have been burning up lot of powder (>1lb).  Off the bench, no problem out to 200 yds, shoots groups like a rifle or better.  I can't even hit an 8x10 paper at 50 yds with a sling, leaning on post, bench or off a Stony Point bipod.  Absolutely no trigger control without shaking so bad I look like an alcoholic in D.T.s.  I am not going to even think of hunting with it and may try for a trade to a lighter G2 if I can find one or possibly a revolver (email me if you have any leads).  I know it's the weight issue for me with a bad shoulder because I too am pretty decent with my Glock at 50 yds.  I am envious of you folks who can shoot these big guns off-hand. 

Offline Keith L

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Re: giving up
« Reply #16 on: September 12, 2008, 09:56:01 AM »
I no longer hunt with either a rifle or a pistol unless I can get some kind of rest.  I think many of the things I missed as a younger man were because I wasn't nearly as steady as I thought.  One of the benefits of being an old phart is that it is no longer expected.
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."  Benjamin Franklin

Offline hunterspistol

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Re: giving up
« Reply #17 on: September 12, 2008, 01:11:25 PM »
Quote
maybe if I switch out this horrid factory black-plastic grip for something else?

  I have mostly the TC Competitor grips in walnut with the air cushion neoprene backstrap, you just gotta love walnut!  I like the Pachmayer Decelerator for anything over .357 Magnum.

   Dude, lighten that trigger until it doesn't cock then, back it up 1/16th of a turn!  That's still heavy for a contender!
"It is well enough that people of the nation do not understand our banking and monetary system, for if they did, I believe there would be a revolution before tomorrow morning."
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Offline 454-hunter

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Re: giving up
« Reply #18 on: September 13, 2008, 05:47:54 PM »
Alice cooper ,

    I would suggest a different approach to shooting stance I would suggest  to you  that you try a kneeling position with your left elbow rested on your knee this gives you that steady support you need and instead of trying to grip the thing like you would a glock . Now I know it wont go flying out of your hand  and so on unless you are small of stature or have small hands if you try tea cupping why do I say that, I shoot a 460 encore and I tea cup it a little however my hands are big and  I dont have the rubber grips I have the walnut and love them . I would also suggest looking at getting some grips possibly from highplainsgunstocks.com or maybe boydsgunstocks.com. I dont know all the variables but there is no way it is the gun it is your stance you need to look at stances such as sitting against something and resting your elbows on your knees and shooting it works man if that dont work try a set of shooting sticks . Good luck buddy I know as a range master you will figure it out.
454-hunter


Offline Alice Cooper

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Re: giving up
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2008, 08:50:24 AM »
I just watched an encore rifle put three muzzleloader bullets into a group at 200 yards you could cover with a skoal can.I see my problem now! I need a 16" barrel and a stock on this thing....
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Offline 45-70.gov

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Re: giving up
« Reply #20 on: September 22, 2008, 03:54:05 PM »
as  the  other  post  suggested....ball and  dummy drill.....let  someone  else hand  you  your  gun  then fire  while  they  watch  for  flinch or follow through when  they  hand  you  an  empty gun [cant  see  it  if  it  goes bang].........or  like  you  said install a rifle stock....NFA stamp  and  your  short barrel  is  legal and  a  more  interesting gun  [$2oo for  regestration]
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Offline Steve P

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Re: giving up
« Reply #21 on: September 23, 2008, 08:32:49 AM »
I wish I could come to the range with you and shoot.  We could have you hitting silhouette size chicken targets at 50 meters in no time.  I am NOT a good standing off hand shooter.  I shoot a lot of 40 round silhouette matches and my scores were usually around 11,12, or 13 out of 40 until about two years ago.  I shot 13 out of 60 and was embarrassed to the max.  My next standing gun was my .22lr and I promised myself I was NOT going to miss 47 out of 60 targets.  I didn't.  I hit about 30.  I changed the way I was standing.  I changed the way I gripped the Contender.  I SQUEEEEEEEEEZED the trigger.

Here are some things that also helped me:

The Contender does not recoil or hold like a Glock 21.  You have 10" of barrel out there wobbling in front of you.  Rather than a standard overhand grip, I use what is called a push-pull grip.  My elbows are slightly bent and my main hand is pushing the gun away as the other hand is wrapped around the first hand and pulling it back.  Your two hands are basically applying pressure from each side of your grip equally forcing the gun to center itself in front of you.  The forward pressure is keeping the gun aimed and the pulling pressure is keeping the barrel up. .

As the gun fires the only movement should be in your elbow or shoulders.  DO NOT move your wrists.  Keep them straight.  With the glock you may have your wrists roll a little with recoil.  As the slide goes forward you come back down to your target.  The bullet has long ago left the barrel.  With the Contender, you have to follow thru.  You have to hold that gun in place until the bullet leaves the barrel.  With the 44 mag, the Contender will push you back first, then will move upward.  This should be a smooth and even bend in your elbows.  Don't let your thumb hit you in the forehead as both your hands come back and then up with the recoil.

How heavy is your trigger.  If you are straining to pull the trigger, you are pulling yourself off the target.  You want to have a light, but crisp trigger that you can SQUEEEEEZE as you hold your sights on the target.  You can relieve some of the trigger pull by adjusting the sear engagement on the trigger.  You can also adjust your trigger travel by adjusting the screw in your trigger guard. 

How fast is your load.  With a 44 mag, I would start off with a 240 grain bullet and about 8 grains of Unique or similar light load. (or even lighter)  Get used to shooting the light loads.  Hold them on target.  20-30 shots every Saturday or sunday.  NO MORE.  If you shoot more than that, you will eventually start flinching or forcing yourself to finish your shots.  Get 50% or more of those shots to be on your target before you work up to a heavier load.  When you work up to stouter loads, stop when you can no longer keep 50% of your shots within the center of your target.  On an 8.5"x11" piece of paper this is about a 6" circle. At 25 yards, you should be able to keep 50% within a 6" circle. 

More hints......   If you shooting high, you are not following thru and are relaxing your grip.  If you shoot right or left, it is usually due to hand strength or trigger pull.  If you shoot OK for a few shots then start getting lower, you are trying to force the recoil down before the shot occurs.  90+% of the time, your sight settings for standing are different than shooting off a bench.  (with most of my contenders this is several clicks of elevation AND several clicks of windage.)  If you are missing your target all together, get a bigger target so you can see where your shots are grouping.  Adjust your sights so the group centers over your target center. 

Remember:
Comfortable grip  (same grip every time)
Level sights
move sights to 6 o'clock hold
take small breath in as you start your trigger squeeze.
Hold breath as you get to trigger break.
squeeze stops as shot fires.
Try to see your shot hit the target OVER your sights.  (don't look up)
Managing the recoil will become second nature.

Good luck!

Steve :)
"Life is a play before an audience of One.  When your play is over, will your audience stand and applaude, or stay seated and cry?"  SP 2002

Offline Swampman

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Re: giving up
« Reply #22 on: September 23, 2008, 08:44:55 AM »
Put a scope on it.  I could shoot 1" groups with my .45-70 at 50 yards off hand with a 2X Leupold EER on it.
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Offline wallask

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Re: giving up
« Reply #23 on: September 24, 2008, 08:41:13 AM »
I shoot IHMSA standing class with a T/C. i've been doing it since the early '80's. It is not the easiest gun to shoot offhand. It takes a lot of practice. I have seen competitors shoot a T/C offhand almost as well as with a rifle.

Offline Tommyt

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Re: giving up
« Reply #24 on: September 25, 2008, 05:00:37 PM »
Quote
   Dude, lighten that trigger until it doesn't cock then, back it up 1/16th of a turn!  That's still heavy for a contender!
I also think Grip and Forend

Look around for a Lighter round than that 44
 maybe Trade out right here on GBO
Good Luck
Don't give up