Author Topic: Why all the different Dies?  (Read 688 times)

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Offline 223dog

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Why all the different Dies?
« on: September 24, 2008, 06:09:09 AM »
Thinking about getting started and I have a few Questions. Why all the Different Dies?  Full length sizing, neck only, Factory crimp,  Roller crimp, and so on?  Some say never use certain type of die if you have a rifle that has a magazine or is a auto rifle.  Others say you only need to neck size fire formed brass.  Some say with break action guns You must full length size. I really just have no idea what to use when I do start.  I Have a mod 70 .270 bolt action with a 4 round magazine and a H&R .223 break action rifle.  I want to know if the ammo for bolt action rifles require different reloading than the ammo for break action rifles.  Will the ammo cases stick if i only neck size?  Sorry for the questions I just am totally new to this. 

Offline John R.

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #1 on: September 24, 2008, 08:47:01 AM »
Just get a standard set of dies for the two calibers you listed and you will be fine. That way you can full-length size or partially size by simply adjusting your seating die. Ask all the questions you want, that's how you learn.

Offline Reed1911

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #2 on: September 24, 2008, 08:53:48 AM »
Weeelllll, that is a really big can of worms. Okay, so depending on the chamber itself will dictate if you need to FL (full length) size or NO (neck only) size. With the Handi rifle, you very well may find that neck sizing is enough, and only have to FL size every 5-6 re-loads. You may also find that it needs FL sizing every time for proper function. On the whole, most gun shoot more accurately and you most often see longer brass life with neck only sizing. There are certainly many guns out there that do better with FL sizing every time and some that just don't care. With the bolt action, you have plenty of camming force that you can use for a case that is a bit large for the chamber so even if you just neck size there is no problem. I'd suggest to simplify the whole process for you, get a FL size set for the .223 and a FL size set for the .270 with an added neck only die for the 270. If you find that you really want to neck only later you can. You can also perform a modified neck only sizing by not fully turning the FL size die to contact the shell holder, more on all that later....grab a couple of reloading books and read them cover to cover and then come on back and start with the questions. Any of the various books will explain 90% of the process with the remaining 10% optional/cal specific/tricks/and tips
Ron Reed
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Offline 223dog

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #3 on: September 24, 2008, 09:58:28 AM »
Thanks for the help.  I have been putting off reloading because There are two guys at work that do it and their information that they give me often contradicts each other.  One of them told me i would Need to spend at least 500 dollars just to get started with these two calibers.  His solution was for me to buy him the dies and have him do it.  I would much rather do it on my own and at my own pace and i think that I can do it well under the 500 dollar mark.  I really should just buy a kit and a few manuals and just get started. 

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #4 on: September 24, 2008, 10:35:48 AM »
First thing you should do IMO is buy a good reloading book and read it cover to cover.   The old standby is the Lyman #47 (but I think the new 48th edition came out this past spring).   Besides learning the ins and outs of reloading from it, I'd read it before you even buy any reloading equipment, as it will help you decide what to buy up front and what you could add later.   In fact, before buying any equipment at all you might do some reloading sessions with your firends to find out if it will be your cup or tea or not.   It is not for everyone.   If you do take the plunge, you can certainly get into reloading for hundreds less than $500.   The 223 and 270 require no frills to reload so even a cheap starter set would make serviceable ammo for both of them.       
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline Reed1911

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #5 on: September 24, 2008, 10:52:00 AM »
Quote
First thing you should do IMO is buy a good reloading book and read it cover to cover.   The old standby is the Lyman #47 (but I think the new 48th edition came out this past spring).   Besides learning the ins and outs of reloading from it, I'd read it before you even buy any reloading equipment, as it will help you decide what to buy up front and what you could add later.   In fact, before buying any equipment at all you might do some reloading sessions with your firends to find out if it will be your cup or tea or not.   It is not for everyone.   If you do take the plunge, you can certainly get into reloading for hundreds less than $500.   The 223 and 270 require no frills to reload so even a cheap starter set would make serviceable ammo for both of them.     
 


Agreed 100%! In fact, (and no I am not at all a Lee fan) you can get all the equipment you need for about 100-150, if you look on the online auction sites and in the classifieds here you should be able to get 90% of the things you need used for 50-75
Ron Reed
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Offline wncchester

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #6 on: September 24, 2008, 10:56:13 AM »
"Why all the Different Dies? "

Think of it as somewhat like why golfers have so many clubs.  They all do basically the same thing but each is praticularly suited to some specific tasks.  Ditto with dies.  But, beginners and a whole lot of old hands do just fine with standard two die sets for bottle neck cartridges and three die sets for straight wall, hand gun type stuff.

The reason your two friends have conflicting suggestions only reflect different methods of working, both are right for themselves, either or neither may be right for you.  Only personal experience will answer that.

I agree that you can get started with good gear for well under $500.  Get the Lyman manual as has been suggested, it will not only tell you basically what is required it will give some ideas on how each piece is used.  After you digest the book, come back and ask for suggestions.

People will fall over themselves offering more personal opinions!  Including me!   ;)
Common sense is an uncommon virtue

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #7 on: September 24, 2008, 11:08:38 AM »
I do not trust anyone to do loads for me. I made a mistake once and had my brother do some loading for me with my equipment and supplies. That was many years ago. He is quite a bit younger than me and he was staying the night, was bored, so I thought I would keep him busy in some thing he liked. He has the attention span of a gnat and forgot to charge a 44 mag. The primer was enough to get it into the bore, there it stuck. I had a devil of a time getting it out. Never again, I do not trust anyone, not even family. Loading cartridges is satisfying to me and relaxing. I can come home from work all keyed up. I set down at my bench and figure out what I want to do for the evening, get out my equipment and supplies. By this time work is all but forgotten and I can concentrate on the task at hand. I started out using Lee reloading kits. The kind you pound on, I had no press. I had one for 22 Hornets and added one for the 222 Remington. I soon found out that I wanted to maximize my time better. I bought a new RCBS Rock Chucker, new RCBS dies for the Hornet and 222, a couple of manuals. I also bought a used RCBS 505 scale and soon after a used RCBS powder thrower. If you noticed a RCBS theme here you are correct. I did not know dittily about reloading and the guy that I relied on told me that the only thing to get was RCBS. I have been adding ever since, but I have branched out and now have dies from every major maker of them. The original press is still being used along with some other equipment I started with. If I had it to do over I would buy a relaoding kit in a box. It will come with most every thing you will need. As has been said before, pick your color, just make sure the press is cast iron, it will last you a life time. While all kits come with a press, the rest of the equipment varies from kit to kit. Some do not have the best scale. You will definitely want a good beam scale to start with. Some kits come with good ones and some don't. If it doesn't you will find out quick enough. Make sure you get at least two major bullet company manuals, more is better. As far as the dies are concerned, you will have to buy those separately. Just start out with a "full" set for each caliber. I have added specialty dies later for certain applications, but the full sets will get you started for sure. Hopefully you have some once fired brass for each of your rifles, so you will only need to buy primers, powder and bullets for supplies. Start with the bullet. Choose a bullet for the application you intend it for and the twist rate of your rifle, buy them in the smallest quantity you can (usually 100, but some times 50). I usually start with good, cheaper bullets, like Remington Core-lokt for your 270 and Hornady v-max for your 223. If they shoot good, you have it made, if not then you can try other style bullets. Then choose a likely powder based on the information in the loading manuals you bought to match the bullets you purchased. I try to find a powder that gets the the most or near the most velocity with out going over pressure limits. It is a good place to start, but it does not guarantee anything. It is just somewhere to start. Buy just 1 pound. Based on the manuals and powder you are using pick a primer, again just buy 1 tray. Now put together your loads working up from the lowest recommended powder charge to the highest. If you can just load 5 at a time while working up. Sight in your scope as you develop the load. Run them over a chronograph at the same time. Maximize your investment in bullets, powder and primers. When you find the magic combination, you have your load. If you can not find a good load start over with another powder, unless your groups are really large, I would recommend another bullet to try, powder is not going to make big differences in group size, generally. I am trying to get you into a load with the least amount of money invested. Once you find the right load, then you can buy supplies in larger quantities. Hopefully you will find it quickly, but some times it takes several combinations to find the magic. I am just giving things to think about here. Your path is wide open and you can take it any way you want - but pay attention tot he data in the loading manuals and read their front sections on how to load before starting or getting your supplies. There is some good information right at the top of this page, read that too. Good Luck and Good Shooting.
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline charles p

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #8 on: September 24, 2008, 12:19:39 PM »
I bet a lot of us learned the questions you are asking the hard way.  Read first.  Buy quality.  Go slowly.  And above all, avoid hot loads. 

Offline Old Syko

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2008, 01:19:51 PM »
Excellant advice all around beginning with the suggestion to consume a manual or 3 but in my opinion Otto brings up the most important advice of all.  DON'T TRUST SOMEONE ELSE TO LOAD FOR YOU!  It could be the last mistake of your life.

Offline Ladobe

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2008, 05:26:42 PM »
I'll add another one that is an all too common thing on the Internet.   

DO NOT TRUST "PET" LOAD DATA FROM ANOTHER RELOADER.

Asking for and using it, OR offering so called pet load data is another fast track to destruction.   No one can guaranty their load will be safe in your firearm or that it will shoot with the same results it gets in their firearm.   Don't do it - don't ask, don't offer, don't use.

WORK UP YOUR OWN SAFE LOAD FOR EACH FIREARM AND FIND THE ONE THAT IS THE SWEET SPOT FOR YOUR OWN FIREARM.

That and safe reloading practices is always the first choice.

BTW, as a new reloader you also need to learn and use a safe step-by-step reloading regime and follow it every time you reload - EVERY TIME.   Probably more mistakes are made, more injuries incurred because someone didn't follow their proven reloading regime.   
Evolution at work. Over two million years ago the genus Homo had small cranial capacity and thick skin to protect them from their environment. One species has evolved into obese cranial fatheads with thin skin in comparison that whines about anything and everything as their shield against their environment. Meus

Offline 223dog

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #11 on: September 25, 2008, 04:33:44 AM »
Thanks for the advice.  I'll Start by getting me a manual and reading it then get a press kit and dies.  The information was all useful.  I am sure a reloading manual could answer most all of my questions.

Offline stimpylu32

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #12 on: September 25, 2008, 04:43:22 AM »
dog

PM coming your way

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:D If i can,t stop it with 6 it can,t be stopped

Offline Troyboy

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Re: Why all the different Dies?
« Reply #13 on: September 27, 2008, 06:32:19 AM »
Welcome,
    I'm new too. Man it's real confusing until you start doing it. Thats when it comes together. READ READ and READ then load. If i had it to do over i'd buy the kit that i liked and move on to making loaded rounds. But what do i know I'm new at it too. Just my 2

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