Hornady Sixth Edition reloading manual, Please explain this to me!

[Slufoot]

If you have a Hornady Sixth Edition reloading manual, look at the data in the handgun section for the 444 Marlin used in the T/C Encore Handgun. Look at the maximum charge of IMR-4198 with the 240 grain bullet.
Now go to the Rifle section and look at the data used in the Marlin lever action. We all know that the Marlin isn't designed to handle the pressures that the Encore can. Look at the maximum charge of IMR-4198 for the Marlin with the 240 grain bullet.
Please explain this to me?
Thanks!
Slufoot

[OR-E-Gun Bill]

Soon after the Hornady 6th Edition came out, there were several addendums issued to correct some printing errors in the manual. I thought I had a copy of the 6th Edition Errata Sheet but can't seem to find it. Hornady, at one time, had it on their website but since the 7th Edition came out it seems that they removed the information concerning the 6th Edition (at least I can't find it).
I can't recall if the .444 Marlin was one of those on the list or not. Maybe someone else here has that information. If not, I would contact Hornady and ask their techs for an explanation.

Bill

[LaOtto222]

I have both the 6th and 7th editions. They both have the same data in both places. I do not think there was an error. What is preached here all the time? - Every gun is a thing onto it self. What works in one will not work in another. Here is one important factor, the Marlin lever action is a 1 - 38" twist, the Encore is a a 1 - 24" twist. Generally faster twist rates mean higher pressures for the same load. I would also suspect that the Marlin is Micro-Groove while the Encore is conventional rifling. Then there is the factor of burning efficiency. The Marlin 24" the Encore is 15". It may do no good to stuff more powder into the case with a 15" barrel, getting no more velocity gain. There are just too many factors to simply state the it is not fair that the Marlin with it's weaker action gets more powder. That is why any reloader with much experience tells you to start low and work your way up. If you had a Marlin 444, there is no guarantee that you could reach their maximum powder charge with out being in an over pressure situation. You may very well find out that 43 grains is the maximum you can get. Another thing to think about - Just because there is published data that say you can 2400 fps does not mean that will be your most accurate load, you may find that a mid load is where you get your best accuracy.

[Graybeard]

TC data in manuals are for the Contender NOT the Encore.

[quickdtoo]

The Hornady 6th data specifically states T/C Encore.

Tim

[Slufoot]

Every gun is a thing onto it self. What works in one will not work in another. Here is one important factor, the Marlin lever action is a 1 - 38" twist, the Encore is a a 1 - 24" twist. Generally faster twist rates mean higher pressures for the same load. I would also suspect that the Marlin is Micro-Groove while the Encore is conventional rifling.

The new Marlins chambered for the 444 have 22" barrels with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves) and they also have a 1:20" r.h. twist rate.

Thanks for the replies everyone. I've been reloading for 25 years and this data seems really strange to me. In fact I called Hornady yesterday and talked to a man named Bob in the reloading deparment about this data. He was bumfuzzled about this also and couldn't give me a good explanation.

[cwlongshot]

USE-TO-BE that data was created in test barrels and strain gauges then published for re-loaders.

 IMHO, Now a days with all the different manufacturers out there building SO MANY different versions of the same thing. Combined with the liberal mentality that its always the person or company with the biggest pocket books fault. (Sorry, I digress  ) Along with the ease of relatively low cost of chronographs. Data is created with specific firearms. Gone are the days of universal receivers with different barrels for every caliber to create the platform for the data.

 I offer that the particular firearm exhibited data that you see in the manual. Single shots like our Handis and the T/C's have a tendency to stretch as the hinge in in front of the chamber. These actions are inherently less strong than the bolt action. In the bolt the front lugs are very close to the chamber. Even today's strong lever actions have a bit of "spring" as they lock up in the rear and allow for some compression movement causing spiked pressures to be recorded. This "spring" and front hinge designs cause pressure to spike above SAMMI specs. To counter this less powder is used in these actions to keep everything on a level basis with in SAMMI specs.

 Does this make any or better sense?

 CW

[Graybeard]

Regardless of what the test gun was load manual data listed separately for TCs are for Contenders. No separate data is needed for the Encore as it takes full pressure data same as any rifle out there. When they do handgun data for rounds the Contender can't handle then yes they are shot in Encores not Contenders but that data is merely for the shorter barrel to give you info on velocity to be expected the data will be same as for rifles chambered to same round.

The reason the manuals began TC sections to begin with is the Contender could handle pressures many other handguns ie, revolvers can't.

[LaOtto222]

"The new Marlins chambered for the 444 have 22" barrels with deep-cut Ballard-type rifling (6 grooves) and they also have a 1:20" r.h. twist rate." - Slufoot

You are so right; but that is not what the data was developed in. 1- 38" twist and 24" barrel for the Marlin. That is why I suspect it has a micro-grooved barrel.

Another thing to think about. Different manuals may have way different data. So different that the minimum for one is higher than the max in another, even with the same style action and same style bullets, same cases, same powder and same primers. I am sure that the T/C data and the Marlin data were not developed parallel to each other. They could have been developed months apart, if not years. Powder lots can vary and primer lots may vary from one batch to another. I am just offering up another variable as to why the data may be different. I wish it was so easy to just say this load works and it will work for you too as long as it is in the same cartridge. There would be no need to work up a load, just dump in the maximum and start firing away. Work up your load, maybe you can reach the same velocity with less powder, or maybe it takes more. No one can tell until it is tested in your particular fire arm. Book data is not gospel, it is a guide line to keep you on the right path and not do something that can get someone hurt.

On page #72 in the Hornady reloading Manual 6th edition.
Tip #9 DON"T START WITH MAXIMUM LOADS. Powder charges we label as maximum were safe in our test firearms and with our components. These loads may be more than maximum in your firearm. Start with loads, say, 10% below the maximum listed and workup. You're courting danger if you don't exercise care in load development.

You may find that the maximum in a Marlin is no more or even less than the data for a T/C

H110 and W296 are supposed to be the same powder, just different lots. Some times the data indicates the they are the same (both 24.0 grains), some times there is a difference in their powder charge (H110 23.2 and W 296 22.2 and 100 fps difference). Does that mean If I throw in 1 more grain of w296 I will get 100 fps more? I do no think so with out getting higher pressures than is recommended.

I quit trying to make sense of it a quite a while back. Just too many variables. I look at the data for several books and decide on a safe starting point and then work up my loads. Some times I can match the data pretty close, but some times, I can't. When I can't then I just live with it. Many time the most accurate load is not the maximum anyway. To me accuracy is more important that velocity any way, within reason.

I did not have a chronograph for many years and I got by just fine. Then I got one. I recently busted mine up. I was totally lost with out it and ordered another real quick. I have become so dependent on it, I do not want to develop any loads with out it. It tells me so much. I use the data from it to find where my real maximum load is, if I get there before I find my accurate load.

[BBF]

Otto:  Did you shoot that chrony of yours

[LaOtto222]

Yep. I have got to put longer legs on my shooting bench a 34 grain bullet going 3400 fps does not confine itself to a small hole, it took every thing out including all the cables.

[quickdtoo]

.

[LaOtto222]

Thanks for the sympathy

[quickdtoo]

There are two kinds of chrony users, those that have shot a chrony and those that will. I almost shot mine the last range trip, I had it all set up and  4 targets on my target holder 2 high and 2 wide, when I went down range to post new targets I posted a pair of addititional target below the top 4, when I got back and was already to shoot, I just happened to shoot at the upper targets first, when I got down to the bottom two, I just happened to notice that my bore was in line with the left skyscreen supports, even tho they're wood, I'd hate to hit one of em, it may still damage the chrony....so that's my closest call so far.

Tim

[LaOtto222]

With my set up, the tri-pod is down as far as it will go. I had shot two other guns, and now I was ready for my 3rd. I have a Bell & Carlson tactical stock on a Remington 700 221 Fireball. Any way the stock cocks up the gun a little compared to the others, making the front end lower. I have a Mueler tactical and had it set at 20X so I could not see the sticks on the Crony. I was all set up to make my first shot, just lining it up. I touched the trigger (2 oz) before I was really ready and bam hole through the Crony I am going to have to get longer legs for my bench so I am not so close to the Chrony when I shoot. I do not have that problem when shooting off of my Lead sled, but off of bags, it is just too close. I have an extra set of sky screens and sticks to use now. The only thing in the Crony I saved was the battery, and of course the remote, even the cable going to the remote was shot through. Those 34 Grain bullets open up real quick and have a shot gun pattern going through.  

[Chappy]

You guys are good at bringing back the memories!  About 10 years ago, I had one of those "OH S--T!!" moments when I destroyed my Beta model Shooting Chrony with a 12 ga. shotgun.  I was bummed to have lost the Chrony, and even more bummed to have done it with my two brothers and two nephews present - they still kid me about that every once in a while!
It was a learning experience though.  I was shooting the hourglass shaped sabot slugs with the the two-piece sabots, and it was one of those (stout) pieces of plastic that hit the front of the Chrony putting a half inch dent in the front of unit and destroying the display and associated electronics.
Fortunately, at the time Shooting Chrony had a (wonderful) policy where you could send in your destroyed unit and get about half its value towards the purchase of a new Shooting Chrony.  I upgraded to the Gamma Master model Shooting Chrony and have been using it ever since.  It has the remote display which is handy and keeps important parts out of harms way.  I do not shoot shotgun sabots over it anymore, but did buy the thick Plexiglas protectors offered for these and shoot my muzzleloader over it - I figure the protectors will stop the light sabots used on those loads.  I also use 1/8 inch thick and 12 inch long kabob sticks you can buy at the supermarket and put black electrical tape around them about midway up and put these sticks in the sunscreen support holes.  This really helps line up the shots over the Chrony.  Keep bullets above the tape marks and your safe.  If a bullet does hit a stick it will easily break off with no damage to the unit.  Live and Learn...

Regards, Chappy