Milk jug penetration test results with snubbie .32 SWL and .38 SPL

[LouisianaMan]

     Just ran a penetration test on water-filled milk jugs, with caps screwed on, and the 6 jugs taped together with two wraps of duct tape. Range from muzzle to first jug was 10 feet. Temp was about 82 degrees. No attempt was made to tilt guns to seat powder against either primer or bullet.
     #1: Colt Detective Special .38 SPL, 2" bbl, with 200g Mt. Baldy LSWC-K, meplat .280 (I think) seated deep and crimped over front shoulder, with 3.4g Win231. (This load and gun previously chrono'ed at 718 fps, thereby trying to ensure similarity to original factory ballistics of 770 fps from 6" bbl. It is modified from "Mikey's load" of 3.8g of the same powder.)
           RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a hole in the board up to the bullet shoulder, then falling out onto the ground while knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was arrow-straight, exiting through the tape on the back side of the sixth jug at same relative location as it struck the first jug. All caps remained intact. First two jugs failed at the circular "dimple" molded in the side; all others bulged the dimple outward without causing it to fail. After impact, the row of taped-together jugs toppled over and fell off the two 2"x4" boards I'd placed them upon.

     #2: S&W Mod. 30-1, .32 S&W Long, 2" bbl., with 115-grain Hunter's Supply LFP .313 bullet, meplat .220 (I think), seated to crimp groove, with 2.8g Win 231. (This load is based on Ed Harris's loads recommended for strong, modern S&W heat-treated revolvers, keeping sample average at/below 850 fps from 4" bbl. From my 2" bbl., this load chrono's at 770 fps.)
          RESULTS: penetrated all 6 jugs and struck nose-first into a 2" x 12" placed behind the last jug, knocking a shallow 1/8" dent in the board, then falling out onto the ground without knocking down the 15" long board. Bullet path was straight until it exited the 5th jug and entered the 6th, deviating about 2" by the time it exited the last jug. This may or may not have been a result of me failing to align my jugs & the shot as exactly as I did with the .38. After impact, the jugs remained atop the two 2"x4" boards they were placed upon. Perhaps that was due to lesser impact force, or perhaps it was because I had shimmed the rather unstable boards before this shot.

     Using the "Ballisticians' Corner" formulas provided at Beartooth Bullets website, here is additional info about these loads:
1. Permanent Wound Channel (vel x meplat): .38 is .503"; .32 is .424"
2. Relative Penetration Index (wt. x meplat): .38 is 49.6; .32 is 33.94
3. Thornily Relative Stopping Power (wt. x diameter x vel.): .38 is 35; .32 is 20
4. Taylor Knock-out Power (wt. x vel. x diameter): .38 is 7; .32 is 4.

     Also, I calculated the foot-pounds of energy as 229 ft-lbs. for this .38 load, and 151 ft-lbs. for this .32 load.

     After we drink some more milk, I'll try the same tests with some other loads. Happy shooting!

[Mohawk]

  Put either round at nipple level of a person trying to take you life and they both work fine.

[Savage]

LousianaMan,
Enjoyed reading your post. It's always fun to compare loads in any medium. One thing you've established here, either load will kill milk jugs!!!
Savage

[Mikey]

Dang!  This means I have to drink more milk so I can sacrifice more milk jugs.  Garrr!!!! 

[LouisianaMan]

     Thanks to all responders, but especial thanks to the cows of the world who make this possible, and to my kids for drinking the milk necessary to advance ballistic science!

     Mikey, you may want to try gallon jugs of water or juice, just to vary your intake & make shooting more fun. . .we won't nitpick about the "additional variable" that introduces!

     Seriously, Mikey, thanks for all the advice & your various posts on the 200g .38 loads. That is the cat's meow for me. I'm getting a 200g LRN mold in a group buy from Lee, which I will shoot for practice, but will buy the LSWC-K slugs for my defense loads. Will kill some more jugs later this year with some crimp groove-seated .38s and also some .357s in my new Ruger SP 101; I'll load the .38s to the mid-700s and the .357 to 800 more or less, from a 2 1/4" bbl.

     BTW, any ideas on obtaining steel plates to shoot so I can recycle my lead bullets?

     Well, off to break in the new Ruger & new Pachmayrs on my Det. Spl., and let the young one pop some Coke cans!

[Mohawk]

If you use the paper milk cartons and fill them with water each carton equals 2.5" of ballistic gelatin, so I've read from guys that mix the stuff. The one time I did try it about 10 years ago it seemed pretty accurate. I was shooting some old Federal Nyclad .38's and the expansion and penetration was that listed in mixed gelatin.

[slim rem 7]

 thats a hardhitting rnd.. my 158 lrn just goes through 4 jugs..
 water won t make it expand..but it out performed a 110 hornady critical defence rnd.. the the hornady rnd did a perfect expansion .. but
holding both spent bullets in my hand ,,i decided id stop a man better with the one that retained its wt..the hornady probably lost half its wt ....the lrn rnd ,,almost none.. if i hit a rib or whatever with the lead rnd ,,it uglys up real mean... it might just going through chest muscles ,,i don t know.. slim

[LouisianaMan]

Mohawk,
That's interesting. . .what size milk cartons, quart or half-gallon?

Slim,
I looked on http://stevespages.com/page8f38special.html to compare other .38 SPL 158g loads to the penetration you're getting, and it seems very similar. I think the high sectional density of the heavy-for-caliber bullets I was shooting is critical to penetration. I know that there are downsides to deep penetration, such as shoot-throughs, what happens with misses, etc., but there are also downsides to shallower penetration, such as failure to hit vital spots. I guess the endless research and discussion about such things helps keep us all off the streets, huh?? Instead, we're reading, buying, loading, shooting, and yakking about it all! :-)

     Down here in La., our light clothing could make a quick-expanding hollow point a good idea, but even in summer a lot of people these days wear two T-shirts and a hooded sweatshirt, so HPs might fail to expand anyway. My biggest concern in home defense is that my home layout is full of leather chairs, upholstered sofas, and other stuff that an intruder would probably duck behind, so I want to be able to shoot through some of that stuff! In my rural environment, I have few concerns about overpenetration.

     My HD .45LCs are loaded with 255g LWCs at 800 fps; my .38s carry the 200g LSWC-K at 720-750 fps; my wife's .38 has a 158g LSWC-K at 780 fps (she likes that load!); and my elder daughter's .32 has the 115g LFP at 770 fps (ditto!). The 20 ga. has buckshot in butt and sling loops, but I don't leave it loaded normally, as I've had two Mossberg magazine springs go bad that way. (Otherwise, I've run thousands of rounds through several and never had any problem.)

     Hopefully none of it will never prove necessary. But it's nice to know we've got some options & are pretty familiar with them, if the situation arises. Having seen who came to our small town after KATRINA and GUSTAV, it was nice to have options. Many parish sheriff's depts. (including ours) had to send most of their force to N.O. after KATRINA, by the way. . .draw your own conclusions! I did a lot of my yard cleanup work after GUSTAV with a .38 on my hip. The good guys didn't mind, and any potentially bad guys got to see that it wouldn't be easy. That seemed to work out just fine.

     Sorry for rambling!

[Mohawk]

  Oh, sorry. Half gallon.

[slim rem 7]

 sounds like you just giving info on you guns to me ..thats what this forums for.. it also sounds like you an wife got it covered.. .. i have to leave my old western auto 20 ga loaded with five.. its never given any sign of not functioning right..
  if friends an neighbors knew how many marlin semis my wife has to pick from ,,,scattered through the house ...they probably think we crazy.. mabe so  .. but no bodies gonna find them in my gun closet,, and the wife loves what she sees the velocitors do, , to a brick.. good luck slim

[docmagnum357]

A couple of things i would like to add.  First, the 200 grain  38 special can be loaded up to make major power factor, right on the ragged edge between standard pressure and +p pressure with 4227, or 2400.  These were some of the most accurate loads i ever shot in my model 15, and it was a generally accurate gun.  wish i had it back...
Second, the 200 grain bullet is on the edge of stability, and will yaw if it hits a bone, etc, and make a horendous flesh wound.  Even at major power levels, it is still a very mild load, much milder than a .40, aor a 9mm major. I suspect that the pressure being relatively low, and the pressure curve longer may be the factor here.
Second, Read the forums here, flesh wounds do not kill game.  only penetration of vital organs.I was very comfortable carrying my model 15 with the 200 grain bullets.  There are no bones in the chest big enought o cause it to go off course.  I did use a truncated cone bullet.  Why change?  I teach ccw classes, and 90% of my students are heeled with a semi auto, so..... 1911 and tc bullets for me now.  200 grain lee tc at 800 feet per second....... sound familiar?  accurate, easy to control, right at the floor of "major", cheap to assemble, seems Elmer keith wanted a 200 grain bullet a 1000 fps in the 41 mag for law enforcement.  But i disgress... Just be assured that you are on to something with the 200 grain 38.  also possibly the "heavy for the calibre 32 loads.   

[docmagnum357]

Ps, I almost forgot!  In my experience, don't use a steel plate.  beter to "catch " a bullet in sand.  The plate turns the bullets to dust, and lead oxide.  not good.  let them be caught in sand.  I switched my indoor range over, and am a lot happier.  i built a 12/12 pitch ramp, and covered it with a foot of sand.  this amounts to 18 inches, stright on.  understand? 12/112 pitch is 45degrees, so you have 1.5 thicknes...works real well, except the sand slides.  i am going to try mixing chain saw lube wit e sand to mak it stay better.  chainsaw bar lube has a "tacafier", and will get a little sticky.  I may have to go to a shallower slope, but i am on the right trck.  just sift the sand time to time to recover lead.

[LouisianaMan]

Yes, I had decided to pile sand in front of my steel plate. . .once I finally go pick it up! Hey at least I'm doing my part for the economy. . . .

[Squib]

if you load up milk jugs you better shoot them that day, they get to stinking even after being washed out.

I like two liters, I drink diet coke like water so it is easy enough for me to get thirty or so built up/saved every month while I load up a little ammo for a monthly shoot (or two)

[LouisianaMan]

Not to worry--I have a milk jug slaughter pen set up with a bunch just waiting till the end of deer season to get "tested." It's outside, well away from the house.  :-)

[Squib]

no no, the stink comes after you blow them... everytime I go to pick them up after shooting I get gagged, it smells like outhouse fumes