Author Topic: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?  (Read 3978 times)

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Offline cinosbus

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Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« on: September 26, 2008, 10:00:22 AM »
I'm thinking about picking up a rifle specifically for hunting deer and elk with cast bullets.

What do you think is the best thing going?

This post is directed to Veral...

Offline Veral

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2008, 07:26:38 AM »
  I'm partial to the 30-06 because of the long neck and copious powder room, which with a normally fairly long throat allows heavy bullets, which deliver a good B.C. I prefer the LBT 180 to 200 gr SP1R or SP.8 for bullets, and these, with softnose, as they allow excellent game performance at ramges to 500 yards.  I load to a velocity of 2450 fps, normally which gives a  gracefull trajectory curve with plenty of power for any game, at least up to moose and the largest bear, yet is not messy with the meat on small deer.
Veral Smith

Offline cinosbus

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #2 on: September 29, 2008, 08:22:12 AM »
I was expecting something like a .375 Win or a .444 Marlin...

But with a softnose, I can see why the .30-06 would be your choice.

The SP.8 is the one with the .800 ogive?

What is the SP1R?

Offline Veral

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #3 on: October 05, 2008, 07:19:46 PM »
  If you re-read my post I said that I am partial to the 30-06. 

  The BEST cast bullet gun is a matter of opinion, of coarse.  Almost anything from 6.5 and up will work fine for deer, and softnoses aren't necessary at all.  They are to increase effective range from about 300 yards out to as far as one can hit.  Just air cooled wheel weight metal will work perfect at ranges to 150 yards if the bullet has a poor B.C. and isn't started too fast, up to about 300 yards if it has a high B.C, and is started with something around 2400 fps, which is possible with a 30-06. 

  My SP.8 has an .800 ogive curve as you expected, while the SP1R has a full one inch ogive curve, and the highest ballistic coefficient of any of the LBT bullets, best of coarse when bullet weight is at the upper end for the cartridge of interest.  Like 180 to 220 gr in 30 caliber.

  For an example of the effectiveness of a high B.C. bullet. -- One of the Native American hunters in this area killed 6 elk in one summer using a 190 gr SP1R started at 2200 fps from a 30-06.  Bullets cast from ww alloy and air cooled.  His longest shots were at about 300 yards.  Expansion and penetration was perfect at all ranges out to that distence.  He said he was happy with the bullet and performance, and of coarse I didn't argue with him!!!!
Veral Smith

Offline jhalcott

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #4 on: October 06, 2008, 09:36:15 AM »
When/IF I hit the lottery, I plan on having a rifle built using 7x57 or 8x57 brass resized to .30 caliber. This SHOULD have a bit more capacity than the .308 and a long neck for those heavy .30 caliber bullets. Till then it's the 30-06 and 311291 or 311041 bullets.

Offline levernut

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2008, 09:01:43 AM »
Veral,
After reading your comments above regarding bullet hardness, velocity and nose profile, I am somewhat confused on what is best for big game (Deer & Elk).  I have worked up a load for my 30-06 using an LBT mold, 310-175-FNGC and, after many rounds and 6 different powders, finally found accuracy with Reloader 19, which has a burning rate near IMR 4831.  However, the bullet needed to be hardened to BHN 22 in order to obtain any sort of accuracy.  I am casting with W-W alloy and the velocities are 2400-2600 fps.  The Ruger barrel has been lapped and is as smooth as a baby's bottom and I have not seen any lead build up yet.  Will a bullet this hard give good terminal performance on big game out to 300 yards or should I make this a soft nose bullet?

I am shooting this same bullet out of my Win 64A, 30-30 and it will not shoot accurately over 2000 fps unless the bullets are water quenched, which has been about 22 BHN.  My best load uses IMR 4320 and pushes the 175 gn at 2200 fps at the muzzle.  Will this combination perform well on Deer to 150 Yards or do I need a softer bullet?

Offline Veral

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2008, 05:34:08 PM »
  Levernut.  22 bhn is too hard for the longer ranges as it won't expand when velocity drops a couple hundred fps from your max load, and if it does expand, it really doesn't expand but only breaks down leaving a blunt shank, which is very effective, never the less.  You'll need an alloy hardness of about 14 bhn for optimum expansion, and especially at the longer ranges.

  You didn't mention the type of lube you are using.  I'm suspecting that you are using something other than LBT lube, as 2400 fps is normally quite easy to get with 14 bhn bullets and the slower powders.  Accuracy will probably not be better than 1 1/2 to 2 inches at 100 yards, but that's adaquate for chest hits on anything from coyotes up out to 300 yards.  The reason tighter groups are hard to get with the easy expanding alloy is just that.  The bullets expand on the back end during takeoff, which deforms them a bit to much for top accuracy.

  When I first started to really get 30-06 performance with cast I was running 165 - 170 grain bullets at 2850 fps, and groups were 3 inches and sometimes a bit over.  This with 20 plus shanks and softnoses.  But with this accuracy I never missed out to 400 plus yards, and feral dogs caught more of my bullets than did edible game.

  One year I got unto a herd of deer in a box canyon, about 125 yards across, and racked off three shots rapidly, taking three deer.  During the following week of ringing ears I decided I would never use a rifle that made my ears ring again, and I haven't.  That's the main reason I settled on 2400 fps velocity from the 30-06.  It is not nasty loud yet I can hit with precision out to 525 yards, which was my longest shot on a feral dog, which was trotting, by the way, and dropped in his tracks with the essential organs in his chest creamed.  If it sounds like I'm bragging, this will undo that issue.  I had just missed him at 35 yards, running but not hard.  I ran to the top of a hill and when he topped out on the far side of the canyon he had just crossed, took the above shot, offhand.  He was a chicken thief who's time was up.

  Almost any rifle is good with cast when the right bullets are used, and I'm not stuck on the 30-06, except that it gives up nothing.  I've used a broad spectrum of rifles from 32-20, 7 TCU, 357, 44 mag, 30-30, 308 30-06 and 458 Win mag.  They all work great within their limits.  I took a mature bull elk with the little 7 TCU and 130 gr softnose bullet started at 2450 fps.  The bullet broke his shoulder bone (not joint) and severed his spine, then exited his off shoulder.

  The key to good performance with cast is selecting the right bullet for the cartridge of interest, making it expand if the caliber is small, and not stretching it's working range when using it.

  My wifes favorite cast bullet rifle is the Marlin 357 mag with 180 gr FN started at 1800 fps, which she has taken coyote, deer and elk with it.  She views a gun as a tool, only, and calls this gun, 'the quiet gun'.   Recoil is pleasant even for her 120 pound frame, the blast doesn't hurt and effective range is about  200 yards without allowing for trajectory on big game.
Veral Smith

Offline Veral

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #7 on: October 19, 2008, 12:50:11 PM »
  jhalcott             Don't wait till you hit the lottery to improve your cast bullet performance.  Just orde an LBT bullet mold with bullet fitted to the gun you have.   And this advise applies to anyone wanting a cast bullet rifle.  The idea of building custom cases and custom rifle to match the performance possible with the molds one has tried is not the best or clearest of thinking.  Better to use a higher performance bullet in whatever gun you have, with STANDARD BRASS.  Use the money saved to buy components or a hamburger and coffee or something else useful.

  I got suckered into getting a 7 TCU many years ago, and didn't like all the case forming, though it was quite simple.  Worst of all, if you run out of ammo for some reason or other, like leaving it at home or whatever, you'll wish for the rest of the year that you could have just run down to the nearest gunshop or hardware and pick up 'a box of shells'.  Anything that goes bang and will kill your deer.  I don't want any other cartridge myself, and would rather be saddled with a 30-30 and ability to get ammo at any place that sells hunting stuff, than the most accurate slam blaster on earth that turns out being too short for a crutch, too weak for a club and no good for a stove poker because of the fancy wood stock, just because I can't find ammo.
Veral Smith

Offline jhalcott

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Re: Best cast bullet hunting rifle going?
« Reply #8 on: October 20, 2008, 05:46:44 PM »
 Yes Veral I've been there with the lost ammo and looking for a store to get some factory ammo to hunt with. I saw an old friend of My grandfather shoot a running deer acrossed a cleared corn field,must have been at least 200 yards, with a 35 Whelen. That stuck in my mind for 20+ years. I had one made up on a Mauser action because of that shot. When I went to the hunting camp and asked the man about his load, he seemed confused. Then another guy said "You remember the ONLY deer you've shot don't you" He had borrowed the gun that morning and had never shot it before!! If there is a better gun than the '06, it's got to be the 35 whelen. I've used 180, 200 and 250 grain slugs in it. It only weighs 7 pounds with scope and sling, ready to hunt. Recoil can be a bit painfull with the 250's. If it's bigger than a deer I'll take the Whelen. MY 30-06 has been used on every thing from ground hogs to BIG deer with cast bullets. From 130 to 205 grains. More than one feral dog and cat has been dispatched with it.