Prairie Dog Hunting

[handride]

  I live in KY and do a lot of handloading and shooting.  I have not been prairie dog hunting but am planning to go in the spring of 2009.  I have been doing a lot of reading on line and am thinking of coming to mid west SD. I have a place I can stay in the Faith area for 100 dollars a day per person and he said he would put us on some dogs.  How was the hunting on the Cheyenne River reservation this year?  Will I be able to find private land to hunt in the Faith area? How about Rosebud and Pine Ridge?  I have all my own gear and don't require someone to stay with me all day. I would like to find a guide that could get me access to private land but close supervision is not needed.  Is there any way to find ranchers that want shooters?  There will be 4 responsible safe adult shooters.  We are going to bring 500 handloads per person per day and were looking for high volume shooting.  We just don't want to spend 300 dollars per day and we want to have a good shoot after driving 1200 miles.  Any help would be greatly appreciated.       

[Ladobe]

You'll be setting yourself up for disappointment if you set your expectations too high for this trip (high volume shooting/2000 rounds a day for example).   Not that it can't still happen rarely, but there are too many variables for anyone to guaranty either this far ahead...  ie, dog numbers go up and down from year to year, so what was there this year may not be what's there next year; some years entire towns are wiped out by plague or poisoned, so many towns are either completely gone or greatly reduced; inclement weather can keep you completely out of the towns for days on end and even on the better weather days keep the dogs down or make shooting a very windy proposition; etc.   So being "put on some dogs" doesn't mean high volume by any means.   Towns are scattered and very small in the Faith area, Pine Ridge has the biggest towns followed by the Rosebud, Cheyenne River and Standing Rock FWIW.   

I'd suggest you contact the SD Fish and Game and see if they still provide the huge packets of information about PD hunting they once mailed out for free.   If so, it would answer all your questions, and many more you probably haven't thought of yet.   Includes maps, local contacts information, fees, etc too.

For over 5 decades I've seriously hunted several species of diggers off and on (mostly on) and can assure you PD numbers everywhere in the west now days are a mere shadow of what they once were.   The best approach is to plan on enjoying the total experience of the trip and not worry too much about numbers.

For high volume shooting I go after a species of ground squirrels that inhabits agricultural areas and don't bother with PD's much anymore.   Much closer, much cheaper and most years they offer more shooting than PD's did even 40-50 years ago.

IMO-YMMV

[handride]

  Thank you for your input.  I will plan on shooting less.  I do understand that it is very difficult to get that kind of shooting.  I just want to give myself the best chance for the most shooting.  How do you get to shoot those types of squirrels?  Thanks.

[Ladobe]

GS's can reach plague levels most years in their range and cost cash crop farmers huge dollars in crop, equipment or livestock loss and poisoning costs.   So getting use of private land is pretty easy just by knocking on doors and asking, if you gain the landowners trust AND do it before somebody else ties up the property rights for that year at the time you want to hunt it.  Once you prove yourself to the landowner, you will have a place to shoot every year already reserved for you and your friends.   The landowner will be your guide to show you the property, then leave you on your own, and most will let you camp right on their property if you want to save on hotel bills.   I even have one landowner that provides my group an extra 4 bedroom ranch house for the shoots AND stocks it with more food and drink than we can ever use.   GS hunting is usually all free of charge to you and if you get most of the private property in any local (like the several locals I did) you'll soon find out your money is no good in nearby towns either.   Smaller communities are the best.   I've had new property owners (to me) who begged and even offered to pay us to come shoot their fields a couple of times, although we didn't have the available days that year to help them out and had to put them off for a later hunt.   So if you are professional and responsible it will be passed along from owner to owner, and new property owners will come looking for you once you get known in an area.  Very much different than the NA reservations or private land owners in PD country who look at PD hunting as a money maker by charging you fees.  Only down side, if it is one, is you won't get a green light on any predators that also hunt the GS's on these farms.   It's easy enough to instead call BLM/public land around the private property though for predators if you want to also pursue them.

I used to host a 10 day shoot for friends from other states (Digger Wars) where I had first refusal for many farms/ranches every year for those 10 days (or as long as I wanted).   And I got most of them by scouting, knocking on doors early that first year.   Was possible for us to shoot pretty much non stop from dawn to dusk almost every day, with certain very large fields we could all shoot together for hours on end without moving the portable benches at all, and for days in the same field by moving them as an area in the field got thinned out.   High volume shooting was more common than not every year at DW.

If it were me traveling so far to shoot, I'd look at GS's on private land as maybe another option to PD's.   Do some research on GS ranges, pick a species and an area you hope to hunt.   Since you're so far away, get ahold of the local fish and game ranger, county wildlife biologist or farmers co-op there as early as possible and they may give you plenty of leads for property owners to contact.   If you conduct yourself well on the phone and gain the trust of the landowner, you can often lock in farms with just the phone call many months ahead.   That's how I first got my two biggest ranches - both were not happy with who shot their property the year before and were looking for new shooters.   And a call to the landowner, ranger or biologists early each year when the diggers first come up for the season will give you some idea of what the population is that year and whether it is worth making the trip to that area that year.   In my case all of my properties were within 10 hours away, so even on low population years at least an appearance or phone call to the landowner was put in to stay on the top of the list for future years.   

Long winded, and only hits on some highlights.   But maybe it will be of some help to you if you look at GS's as an option.  FWIW, the GS's pretty much made me forget all about PD's even though I could hunt them half as far away.

[handride]

  Thank you.

[skb2706]

If you stop and consider what you are asking it breaks down like this. Lets say you have 8 good hours in a day of shooting.....possibly a few more but likely eight is about right. You want a place that will accomodate 4 shooters with targets at a rate of one for every minute of the day non-stop all day. No accounting for snack breaks, water, lunch and just getting out of the sun. The reality is that even if you can get that it is a much more daunting task than you might think. Sounds great on internet forums but it just doesn't add up.
You will get serious eye fatigue/strain the very first day. Try it sometime...line up, aim and shoot your rifle 500 times in one day in the hot bright sun. Repeat the next day.....
I spent this last weekend with a friend for one and a half days of shooting pds on private farm land. We shot steady, moved three times the first day and twice the next. We each used a total of about 250 rounds for the weekend. There was no lack of targets, no waiting to find shots, just a steady load, aim and shoot. The only thing I can think of is that we aren't in a big hurry where someone who travels long distance may be. We also don't both shoot at the same time...one spotter and one shooter. Going back in three weeks for more of the same.

[iiranger]

I believe it was Pogo who said, "We have met the enemy and he is us..."

You have not finished your homework and as is, you are deluded. 2,000 rounds a day? That "set's the bar" AWFUL  high. Maybe you missed the weather over the last decade. There has been severe drought in the high plains, the grasslands, etc. The low density population areas do not get news/weather coverage comparable to more densely populated areas. In nature animals live in cycles. With drought and low food the females have fewer pups, the males lack energy, disease gets going... In addition to the standard poisoning the government has been doing for about a century... When every thing is GREAT, in a couple years, MAYBE, then you might see that kind of shooting once in your life. Time to start looking, as said, is now.

South Dakota MARKETS! The regrettable truth is that they do not care to tell the "whole truth" when it would hurt business. Thus the advice to hit the game rangers, government biologists, etc. Plague has been a problem. With cattlemen wanting grass for cattle in drought, they have encouraged poisoning. Can't blame them. Don't like it. There is the "black footed ferret thing." Areas closed for a weasel that was about exterminated by a house cat disease. Shoot there and it is Fed Slam. Don't. Google Rez names, Rosebud, Pine Ridge, Standing Rock, Lower Brule, for current info... but don't forget, SW corner is public land, Buffalo Grass Nat. Grassland... Wide open except for the ferret thing. Very wide open. Go in pairs and try not to break down or run out of gas. And bring MUCH water.

If you examine "Indian" as in Native American politics, you will be reminded of Chicago, NYC, K.C., ... They fight among themselves. Some are in favor of selling shooting to shooters. Some are not. Rules change. Google the Reservations and keep current. Pine Ridge has a drinking problem much covered in the newspapers. Beware of the unreliable/intoxicated.

There are p'dogs throughout the grasslands. Mexico to Canada. Gun laws make shooting in Mex or Canada --forget it. Tx/OK is pay to shoot. For the Rich. In ND, SD, Wyo, MT, the ranchers will beg you to come shoot in good times. Drought is not "good times." Still they wouldn't mind the company but 2,000 a day. Sorry. There is a Nat. Grassland ["Cinnamon?" personal joke. Cimmaron, actually] in the SW corner of KS. In better times many p'dogs. CO has them but they practice "catch and release" covered on t.v. no less. Then there is that vacuum truck that sucks them out of the ground for transfer... Wyo is wide open. You won't hurt oil equipment with a varmint rifle although you might get lynched for trying. Cheyenne is full of tree huggers. Get outside the booby pond... Nothng organized in NE. Ron Scherbarth is a noted sculpture/taxidermist. Google him. He could stuff you a rat... At one time, ND grazing assoc. was begging for shooters. Gas was cheaper and no drought... Near T. Roosevelt Nat. Park. (BUT not IN THE PARK!). I prefer Wyo. No license needed and wide open arms welcome from chambers of commerce. Once saw a list of ranchers put out by SD extension. OUt of date now if I could find it.

Keep digging. Don't get lazy or fooled by the Rez talk. (lakotamall.com has another guide). VHA has a magazine with guides. [varminthunters.org ??] It is worth the investment in time and with the price of gas coming down. Actually it is not too late now. Barring early winter, some of the best travel/shooting is after Sept 15 when the tourist traps close and the educated dogs are still feeding. Longer shots but more challange/fun... You are right, plan, plan, plan... the ENJOY!  luck.

[skb2706]

What I usually tell guys who come out to shoot with me is to bring plenty of ammo (300 rd./day) and don't worry so much about using it all. The bottom line is that you want steady supply of targets, at shootable ranges and decent weather. I believe the last 'cross country shooter' who came out used 460 rds. in 2 1/2 days. I know he left tired and happy with the trip. He always comes back so I will assume there was plenty of shooting for him.
Here in CO, Sept is generally the best time of year as there are fewer shooters, more farmers with pd problems and the reactive targets are fat. Last weekend I didn't see another human, let alone other shooters while we were set up to shoot.
Outside of the metro area where you cannot shoot them anyway, not one time have I ever witnessed "catch and release" (whatever that is) nor have I found a place where the landowner did not welcome me shooting. I am glad that others do not promote shooting them here.......it serves me well.

[handride]

  Does anyone know anybody who would assist in helping set up a hunt?  We dont mind to pay we just want a good shoot and dont want to get ripped off.

[Ladobe]

Sounds like you are still looking for a turn key PD hunt, with references.

I am sure there are "guides" with a better rep than others if they consistently satisfy their customers with their overall service and not just the numbers.   They can't produce the numbers every year for every shoot they guide.   So what constitutes a rip off with them as long as they provide the service they are known for?    Those without the rep might do a great job too on average, but just because a guide produced for one gent's shoot doesn't mean he will for the next one.   

Still comes down to...  He who is helped best is he who helps himself.   Do the research, make the calls and draw your own conclusions is your best chance for a good shoot because you, and only you knows what concessions you'll make as the facts unfold from each source contacted.

FWIW, in my entire life I have NEVER hired a guide, including when I traveled to other states (countries) to hunt.  Did I draw blood on every big game (etc) hunt?   No.   Did I get high volume shooting on every P&V hunt?   No.   Did I totally enjoy those hunts anyway?   You better believe it.

[iiranger]

O.K. you want a guide. I mentioned Ron Scherbarth who is also a guide. Since nothing is organized in Nebraska and he does exotic animal hunts... Lots of land/grassland and experience. Not far from "Toadstool" Nat. Grassland, NW NE and Buffalo Gap in SD.  Must admit, friend of the family friends. Great Grand parents were neighbors way back when. Couple WW I vets. You decide.

Lakotamall.com has a couple "hunts" guides listed. This is Pine Ridge area where the Indians drink so much, again, you have to decide. Rosebud has a good rep for service at a price. I think Eagle Butte is on Northern Cheyenne Rez. Another good rep. Often if you stop at a small town diner or farm store and ask they will buy the coffee and start drawing maps... "Open arms" welcome... but you are taking a bigger chance with gas at $4.-/per or so.

Many "big game" guides will park the hunter with a filled tag in a p'dog town to amuse himself (herself) until they run out of ammo. [And then the dogs come up and laugh at you... seems like it.] Just google "elk" or antelope... they forget to mention p'dogs in advertising.

VHA (varmint hunters assoc. varminthunters.org ??) has a club, 800, magazine, and in the magazine ads for guides. They are supposed to regulate out the poor service. ?? [With friends like Ron, I don't need them and cannot speak from experience.]

I have known a couple shooters from CO. Both said the same thing. They would "stay home" in the future. Lots of 'dogs in rural CO and residents don't need a license (then anyway). Non residents get hit hard with fees so they wouldn't recommend the place to me when no license at all is required in Wyo.

The catch and release was a t.v. --Discovery?-- show maybe 10 yrs. ago. Bunch of women, the spokespersons anyway, were putting dish soap suds down the p'dog holes to scare the furballs out, catching and drying them off, and putting them in pet carriers for release somewhere else. Land was being cleared to build houses. Suburban Denver, I think. To me that is like catching, live catching, mice in your basement to release in your back yard or the neighbor's back yard. And many places it is ILLEGAL, as in against the law, to live trap squirrels or ?? and release them somewhere else... IMO "dumb"...  Also knew a man who lived in Denver and said the golf courses were going nuts. P'dogs tunnelling and geese stopping at the ponds to swim and swallowing golf balls...?? If you are willing to pay the fees and find areas away from the bunny lovers, I am sure you will be welcome. On the other hand the NRA had that warning about flying thru Denver airport with firearms, they would bust you... any way possible, just because they are liberal gun haters... You decide the chances you choose to take. Not for me thank you. I suspect your welcome would be as great or much greater in rural KS just to the east of CO but no guides for "elk" and too far west for "flyway duck guides." At the same time it is only the west 1/3 approx. that is grassland. The old "cowboy trails" like in Lonesome Dove 2? 3?  Forget Kansas City and Wichita... Liberal or Garden City, maybe... luck.

[skb2706]

I live in the metro Denver area and you are correct. Among such things a geese, prairie dogs and now foxes the city is under seige. It would seem we have protected them right up to our doorways. You cannot pass a highway island without seeing thousands of pds, can't play golf or pass a golf course without waiting for geese to walk out of traffic and foxes are more common than feral cats.
No matter we just drive on out past all that PC stuff and shoot til we run outta ammo.

[d_hiker]

Handiride, there is a lot of good information given here.  But the big thing is getting the contacts made.  Last year we (3 of us) went to South Dakota for our first p-dog shoot.  After a lot of reading and researching and talking with others (not a lot of p-dog shooters want to share too much info, I found out) we planned our first trip in early June.  We changed our planned location a couple of times before we left on the trip.  It was about a 13 to 14 hour drive each way.  We took about 1500 rounds of centerfire and 1000 rounds of rimfire, each.  But being as it was our first trip our expectations were that we might spend the first couple of days moving around trying to find a spot or two.  We spent the first morning driving around trying to find a guy that had been referred to us as wanting someone to shoot p-dogs on his property.  We had spent some money on maps of areas that we thought might be of interest.  We stopped a couple of times asking people where this guy lived.  They all seemed to know him and could give vague directions.  But we finally found his place and woke him up about noon.  No one mentioned that he worked third shift.  We had his phone number but we soon found out that only one of the 3 cell companies that we had, would work, very marginally, when you were on a high spot and you on the back bumper and held your hand like this.  I think you get the idea.  None of them ever got a signal while we shot this area that was about 30 to 40miles wide by about 75 to 100 miles long.  After chatting with the guy he told us where his property was and showed us on the map how to get there.  He also said that no one had been shooting it and he was happy to have us there.  He did mention that times were rough with the high gas prices and $20 a person would sure help him out.  Not a problem.  The getting there can be another adventure in and of its self.

We got there and found a couple other trucks driving around the property.  We just held back at the gate and setup to shoot a few p-dogs that were there.  Finally one of the other guys started walking towards us.  So I walked out to meet him.  I felt like it was an old western movie.  He informed me that they were shooting those high power military style rifles and the bullets went a long way.  I told him I had talked with the owner and we had permission to be there.  He said they had permission to be there also.  He didn't say where they got permission other than a comment that someone at the motel they were staying at told them about the place.  But they were only going to be there another hour or two and then for home.  So we checked our scopes and took a few close shoots at the p-dogs we could see until they left.  Then we wondered around and had some nice shooting.  Not a lot, but the wind was too bad, 10 to 15 mph.  Most shots were in the 200 to 400 yard range.  We headed to the motel about 8:00.  One thing that the previous shooters had told us was of another dog town closer to where we were staying and that we had permission to shoot it.  So the next morning we headed to the new spot.  A great spot not a massive amount of p-dogs, but enough popping up to have some fun.  The picked up in the afternoon and went from 10 to 15 mph to 20 to 25 mph and gusty.  It was hot, I think the motel manager said it was up to 107°.  The range to shoots also increased to 300 yards minimum to a few shoots out to 597 yards was our furthest confirmed hit (laser rangefinder from the dead p-dog to Jeep at the shooting benches).  Practice long range all you can before you go.  It will help with the frustration of knowing where your bullets are hitting.  We also took turns being a spotter.  Good binoculars are a big plus.  We brought a lot of ammo home but we had a blast.  Also on the last day as we were driving out, we ran into the owner.  We had looked for a house when we got there and nothing was close.  We found out that we did not have permission to be there.  We apologized and told him about the other guys.  He was aware of them when we described their trucks.  He had run them off for not asking.  He gave us his phone number so we could call before our next trip. 

We went back to both properties in September last year.  The dogs were skiddish and fewer opportunities to shoot.  The distances were longer also, 300 yards minimum to 600 yards.  But we still had fun.

What is your guy offering you for the $100 per person per day?  We did run into an owner that said he had a lot of p-dogs but he wanted $75 per day per shooter and he wanted the money before we could go look at the p-dog town.  Since we were on an exploring trip we declined.  But I have his number filed.  We had a nice motel room and for the three of us it was less than $100 per night.  Free bagels, toast and juice for breakfast    Be sure you have the appropriate license if you are going to SD.  They have a nonresident license that is for p-dogs and I am not sure what else it includes for about $40 and you can get it online.  But that is no good on the reservations.  Each reservation sets their own permit fees.  Plus the leasees can also charge you to shoot.  While during research I had one individual tell me of a reservation that after buying the permits they were told that they had to have a tribe member guide them and that was an additional $$$ amount.  They felt ripped off on that one.  I also have heard about the alcohol problem in places.

This year we went to Oklahoma.  Not as many p-dogs and they were a smaller species.  But we had a blast and great compnay.  One day we didn't even shoot because of the wind.  But we did visit p-dog towns that had been poisoned and not a p-dog around.  I suspect that the plague had wiped out some towns.  But we did find shooting opportunities.

Good luck and have fun.  Do your homework so you don't set yourself up for disappointment.  We went on a couple of road trips and also got to shoot.