Author Topic: Self defense bullet - cartridge  (Read 1965 times)

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Offline roughcreek

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Self defense bullet - cartridge
« on: June 15, 2008, 05:39:35 PM »
I presently carry a 44 special with CCI ammo carrying the 200 gr. Speer Gold Dot bullet. After reading the Strabourgh tests I see that
document concluded that the Magsafe is the best stopper. Including penetrating several layers of clothing. In almost all calibres tested.
http://www.thegunzone.com/strasbourg.html

Anyone using the Magsafe ammo?  Any opinions on the tests?

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Offline John R.

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2008, 02:23:15 AM »
Magsafe's would be good in certain situations, but probably not the best where penetration is required. (windshields, very large people,etc.) The tests were done on goats if I'm not mistaken. I wonder if any of the goats were on crack or crystal meth, now that would be an intresting test. ;)

Offline Old Griz

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2008, 06:56:29 PM »
How heavily dressed were those goats? Jackets? Winter coats?

I'd rather have something that is going to penetrate.
Griz
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2008, 01:21:12 AM »
The Fackler report analysed police involved shootings. For the popular cartridges there were often over 1000 cases. Their criteria was did a hit solidly in the torso stop the subject. The best performer was the 357 125gr Federal loading with a 97% success. I suppose you can find the report somewhere on the net. Trouble with the report is that it is now pretty dated. At the time it came out there was a lot of innovation in rounds designed to be manstoppers, and I don't know if it was ever updated or not. It stepped on a lot of strong beliefs held by the big bore guys, and I suppose they cooked up all sorts of reasons why it was flawed, but it was scientific, and as real world as you can get.

Offline John R.

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2008, 02:19:23 AM »
Evan Marshall and Ed Sanow also had a study using street results from across the country. What works , works. A 125 gr. SJHP @ 1450 is definitly going to ruin your day. As with most things that need to be killed, it's shot placement that ultimately does the trick.

Offline jsoukup

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2008, 08:30:06 AM »
The tests were done on goats if I'm not mistaken. I wonder if any of the goats were on crack or crystal meth, now that would be an intresting test. ;)

Goats don't need drugs. Just try to keep a billy from a nanny "in season". Determined and Nasty!

Offline roughcreek

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2008, 06:50:28 PM »
I was interested in the handguns used.
  http://www.thegunzone.com/goats/strasbourg-weapons.pdf 
and the wide variety of ammo used
   http://www.thegunzone.com/goats/strasbourg-38special-4.pdf     
 in this very controlled test.  It was interesting that the AIT (average incapacitation time in sec.) was the fastest with the Magsafe in almost all calibres. And the AIT did not differ very much.
Here in Seattle recently we had a CCW accidentally discharge his Glock at a festival and the bullet penetrated 3 people. (no one killed). Don't know what calibre his Glock is or what ammo he was using.  In my mind this is unsatisfactory performance from a defense gun.  Don't know what he was charged with. To say nothing of the possible law suits from the people hit.
That is why the Magsafe interests me.  Granted these tests were on goats and penetration was not one of the things reported. But a very good method to compare a lot of guns, calibres and bullets.    Something to think about.  Roughcreek
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Offline BBF

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #7 on: June 18, 2008, 07:38:44 AM »
lemme get this straight? It would have been better if the first person was dead and the other two walked away? Never mind how that pistol got to be discharged anyway
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Offline roughcreek

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #8 on: June 18, 2008, 01:42:21 PM »
45-70.
Yes, you are correct. In a defensive situation (which is what this thread is about) it would be better for the first person ( the one who attacked you) to be dead and all others walk away.

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Offline coyotejoe

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2008, 04:20:42 AM »
The Fackler report analysed police involved shootings. For the popular cartridges there were often over 1000 cases. Their criteria was did a hit solidly in the torso stop the subject. The best performer was the 357 125gr Federal loading with a 97% success. I suppose you can find the report somewhere on the net. Trouble with the report is that it is now pretty dated. At the time it came out there was a lot of innovation in rounds designed to be manstoppers, and I don't know if it was ever updated or not. It stepped on a lot of strong beliefs held by the big bore guys, and I suppose they cooked up all sorts of reasons why it was flawed, but it was scientific, and as real world as you can get.

No, they don't have to cook up reasons, they just ignore all evidence to the contrary, as they have always done. How else can one believe in "momentum" as an index of stopping power except by ignoring the fact that all firearms produce more recoil momentum than impact momentum?
The story of David & Goliath only demonstrates the superiority of ballistic projectiles over hand weapons, poor old Goliath never had a chance.

Offline roughcreek

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #10 on: June 22, 2008, 06:33:08 PM »
Well, I guess I'll scrap this search for info.  After further reading it looks like there are a number of people that believe the tests were all a hoax.  So can't rely on the info presented in it.  Appears no one here has used the Magsafe ammo. So will stick with what I am using and continue reading whatever I can find.

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Offline S.S.

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #11 on: June 25, 2008, 10:54:20 AM »
The best is the one that you and your weapon can shoot most accurately !
I have tested both the Magsafe and the Glaser and found both woefully lacking in penetration.
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Offline PaulS

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #12 on: June 27, 2008, 01:11:26 AM »
S.S.,
I believe your answer makes as much sense as any of the tests. If you can shoot it well, are comfortable shooting the gun, and it is accurate, you are more likely to hit what you are shooting at and hitting the target in a place that will retard any advance. That being said, I use a 357 with a 140 grain hollow point at 1464 fps (as chronographed). It is the most accurate round I have for my gun. I practice with it all the time, used to compete with it in "Hunter's Pistol' and can keep the groups inside 1.5 inches. It is easy for me to use "instinctively" (point and shoot) and the round can be used for everything from rodents to man size targets of threat. At home I have a 12 ga. that is loaded with #9 shot in heavy field loads. At household ranges it will do a better job of killing without having the ability to go through my walls and those of my neighbors. I know that the 357 will go through several walls (mine and the home next door), kitchen appliances and still penetrate through cabinets and lodge in an exterior wall in a neighboring home. A law enforcement officer using the same ammo had an accident with his gun that proved this out. While I am sure that the bullet would "fully penetrate" a perp on the street and continue on, it is my best choice for a carry gun.
PaulS

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Offline bubbinator

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #13 on: October 17, 2008, 07:52:17 PM »
Didn't Mag-Safe have some safety issues recently?  I can't specifically remember if it was a recall or I read it on another forum, 1911, I think. Scan the 1911 Forum for it, just in case.

Offline StrawHat

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #14 on: October 20, 2008, 08:25:14 AM »
Here in Seattle recently we had a CCW accidentally discharge his Glock at a festival and the bullet penetrated 3 people. (no one killed). Don't know what calibre his Glock is or what ammo he was using.  In my mind this is unsatisfactory performance from a defense gun.  Don't know what he was charged with.     Something to think about.  Roughcreek

If the bullet struck three arms or three legs, this penetration could be understandable.  Three center mass penetrations?  Not likely, although P Villa supposedly lined up prisoners for execution and got 3 or 4 with one 45 LC.
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Offline docmagnum357

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #15 on: November 22, 2008, 01:23:53 AM »
First, Fackler is not a big fan of " one shot syop" statistics.  He is the guy on the other side of the argument.  Some people argue that the Strauseburg tests never took place.  That could be true.  Maybe they are just an urban myth.  But the thing that I don't like about the whole series of tests, if they did take place, is that the goats were shot broadside through the lungs.  I have shat quite a few slaughter hogs with a .22 target pistol, all of them in the head.  They are all very very dead.  Does that make a one shot stopper out of a .22?  Absolutely not! 

In reality, you must ask yourself a question;  would I let someone shoot at me standing still?  OF course not!  Neither would any one that you might be likely to shoot in a defensive setting.  The correlation between hunting and self defense is almost 100%.  The hunter and the individual who is defending his own life both want the same thing; dead meat on the ground.  The hunter so he doesn't have to track a wounded animal, and the citizen because he doesn't want to be injured by a wounded "animal". 

When you are hunting, you will seldom be presented with a picture perfect broadside lung shot, or a head shot.  It is even less likely in a self defense scenario.  Penetration trumps everything except accuracy.  Period.  And don't believe me, go out and kill something, like a deer or an elk.  A little bit of real life experience and you will know more than 99% of "keyboard commandos " and gun rag shootists. 

Offline Lee Robinson

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #16 on: November 22, 2008, 05:54:41 AM »
1st...you have it with you.

2nd...it is reliable.

3rd...you can hit with it

4th...penetration. (enough to do the job, to get through clothing and then into where you need it to penetrate to stop the attack...but no more after that).
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Offline bilmac

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Re: Self defense bullet - cartridge
« Reply #17 on: November 22, 2008, 08:52:53 AM »
Well said Lee I think that is a perfect list of priorities. The best manstopper is a 357, and that is what I want lying by my bed, but most folks aren't going to carry a 357 everyday. Also 357s small enough to carry are hard to shoot straight.