Author Topic: Let's talk AR-15 Bulk Ammo? (Read 1626 times)

teddy12b · « **on:** October 03, 2008, 06:02:53 PM »

Didn't want to hijack the thread on AR-15 magazines, but I'm curious about how many guys out there keep a stash of ammo somewhere. If you do what brand/type and how much?

Since looking at getting back into the 223 AR-15 shooting I've noticed that you can find bundles of (pmc bronze) 223 55gr fmj in brass cases in 500 round packs for $180. It's a lot more than ammo used to be, but for 500 rounds that doesn't seem all too bad when you consider the next best alternative in factory ammo is wolf stuff.

In particular I'm curious of what people think of the PMC bronze 55gr fmj ammo. Is there a better/cheaper non-wolf ammo out there for a 223 to stock up on?

cjclemens · « **Reply #1 on:** October 03, 2008, 06:46:53 PM »

I use the wolf 62 grain hp's for just about everything, and I have yet to have a problem. They tend to leave a little more fouling behind, but I think thats common with any cheap bulk ammo.

Old Syko · « **Reply #2 on:** October 04, 2008, 03:00:19 AM »

Teddy PMC and Remington green box are about all that is available around here and at about the same price as you've quoted. Keep an eye out at Wideners http://www.wideners.com/ and others online as they offer different ammo on a regular basis and sometimes a bit cheaper. Just be prepared to buy in volume whatever you get. With the exception of a few thousand Radway Green I picked up a couple years ago everything I have is of my own manufacture. I can still load my own for less than $150 per thousand plus brass and brass is only $60 to $65 per thousand.

cjclemens, either you don't shoot much or you are very lucky with the Wolf. I use a ton of the stuff in 7.62x39 but will not use the .223. For me it would be unusual to burn less than 1,000 rounds in a session.

teddy12b · « **Reply #3 on:** October 04, 2008, 04:18:10 AM »

Quote from: Old Syko on October 04, 2008, 03:00:19 AM

Teddy PMC and Remington green box are about all that is available around here and at about the same price as you've quoted. Keep an eye out at Wideners http://www.wideners.com/ and others online as they offer different ammo on a regular basis and sometimes a bit cheaper. Just be prepared to buy in volume whatever you get. With the exception of a few thousand Radway Green I picked up a couple years ago everything I have is of my own manufacture. I can still load my own for less than $150 per thousand plus brass and brass is only $60 to $65 per thousand.

cjclemens, either you don't shoot much or you are very lucky with the Wolf. I use a ton of the stuff in 7.62x39 but will not use the .223. For me it would be unusual to burn less than 1,000 rounds in a session.

I'm trying to do the math on all of this so please stick with me. Where are you buying all of your components that you can load ammo so cheaply? I must be buying from the wrong place because I can't load my own ammo for that low. I usually load up 69gr matchkings, but even using a cheaper bullet wouldn't get my reloading costs down to what you're talking about. Out of curiousity have you calculated your cost per 20 rounds (just to compare to the factory ammo on the shelves)?

jmayton · « **Reply #4 on:** October 04, 2008, 05:58:22 AM »

I've shot a couple of boxes of the PMC and it's ok. I think it would work for my emergency stash. At that price your talking $.36/round and I reload with 55gr Sierra Gamekings for $.39/round and they're more accurate and more versatile. I picked up a few boxes of Monarch 55gr SP's at Academy the other day and I'm interested to see how they shoot. The cheap Monarch is steel case like Wolf, but this stuff comes in brass cases. It was $.45/round. I think you can get Black Hills Reman for about $.40/round but I haven't bought any in a while.

I agree with Old Syko, I'll shoot Wolf all day every day in my AK, but I don't like it in my AR...too much laquer build up....cases stick after a while.

teddy12b · « **Reply #5 on:** October 04, 2008, 06:57:16 AM »

Here's roughly the breakdown for my 223 reloading costs:

POWDER: $.09 per round
1 pound is equal to 7,000 grains. I use 24.5gr of varget powder for my match handloads. 7000 / 24.5 = 285. I assume I can get 285 223 loads from 1# of varget powder. In my part of the world I'm lucky to find varget for $25 a pound. $25 / 285 = .087, so basically $.09 per round unless I did something wrong.

PRIMER: $.03 per round
I'm lucky to find primers around here for $25 out the door for a 1000 pack. $25 / 1000 = $.025 per primer, so basically $.03 per round unless I did something wrong.

BULLETS: $.08 per round (plus shipping unless you can find this deal locally)
I usually use matchking bullets to reload in my 223, but since we're talking about stocking up on cheapo ammo I'll use the cheapest 500 pack I can find on Midway.com. Right now you can get 500 55gr fmj for $37 (round the change up to simplify math) plus shipping. $37 / 500 = .074, and rounding up to the nearest penny is basically $.08 per round unless I did something wrong.

BRASS: $.25 (if used once)
I'm lucky to find 100 pieces of brass around here for $25. $25 / 100 = $.25 per round unless I did something wrong.

$.09
$.03
$.08
$.25
$.44 per round

If you reuse brass it can go down to $.19 per round.

Old Syko · « **Reply #6 on:** October 04, 2008, 09:36:31 AM »

Teddy even using your figures you're at $200 per 1000 rounds plus brass. Add in the depreciated value of brass (purchased at $65 per 1000) that you will load no less than 15 times (unless you're doing something wrong) and you only add 4.4cents per round instead of .25. I won't use anything but Milsurp brass in .223/5.56. The commercial doesn't hold up near as well.

I usually run wc844 powder and buy in bulk. 48# per order unless I double. The HAZMAT fee is waved on volume purchases or I do a self pickup when I'm in the area. $95 per 8# when done this way so my powder is less than half what you're paying for Varget which I don't care for to begin with. Same price yet today.

The last time I bought primers was in June i think? $99 per 5000. 50,000 lasts a while. I see they have gone up about $30 per 5000 since then making them about $26 a brick now instead of $20 like I paid.

I have no need to run a premium bullet in an AR for my use and certainly not for ammo stores. The last bullets I bought were earlier in the summer also and were 193 and 855. I also at the same time picked up 12,000 Hornady 55gr. FMJ. All were a touch less than $60 per 1000. I see they are up 12 to $15 per 1000 now. This is why I just ordered 2000 of the varmint nightmare bullets to try. I'll have to keep them separate and not let them get into the regular rotation though which is also a concern, but I want options in case other supplies dry up.

Even figuring in the true cost of brass and todays prices were I to buy today I'm under $.18 per round.

When I figure in tumbler media, electricity, case lube and the like I'm still loading for $150 per thousand or less + brass.

Like I always tell everyone, buy in volume to save money and no I can't afford to pay $350 to $400 per thousand when I can do them myself for less than half and rest assured of what I have.

jmayton · « **Reply #7 on:** October 04, 2008, 10:35:08 AM »

Quote from: Old Syko on October 04, 2008, 09:36:31 AM

48# per order unless I double. The HAZMAT fee is waved on volume purchases or I do a self pickup when I'm in the area. $95 per 8# when done this way so my powder is less than half what you're paying for Varget which I don't care for to begin with.

Let's see....48# at $95/8# that's $570/order....i think a decimal point was missed.

Quote from: Old Syko on October 04, 2008, 09:36:31 AM

The last time I bought primers was in June i think? $99 per 5000. 50,000 lasts a while. I see they have gone up about $30 per 5000 since then making them about $26 a brick now instead of $20 like I paid.

Ok, is it $99/5,000 or $99/50,000 or $129/5,000 or $26/1,000 or $20/1,000? What do you actually pay?

Sorry, I don't mean to nitpick, but I'm a bit confused by all of that.

Old Syko · « **Reply #8 on:** October 04, 2008, 11:49:43 AM »

Jmayton,

No decimal point missed on my part. I pay $95 per 8#. Yes that is $570 per 48#. Teddy states he pays $25 per pound which is $200 per pound or $1200 for 48#. At $95 per 8# with a 25.5 grain load that's 2196 loads per 8# jug which is $.043 per round as opposed to Teddy's stated $.09 per. Where is the missed decimal?

On the primers it is just as stated $99 per 5000. I assumed everyone could figure from that how much 50,000 would be even though it is irrelevant. I bought my last supply in a lump sum of 50,000 which is 10 times the amount stated is it not? And as stated they have gone up a bit since I last ordered.

What is not to understand? Seems kinda basic.

cjclemens · « **Reply #9 on:** October 04, 2008, 11:55:15 AM »

Maybe I'm lucky. Who knows? It's not really impressive on paper (1.5" @ 100 yards), but its good enough for the coyote hunting that I do. I can make some nice groups with handloads, but when you can get the Wolf stuff in bulk for less than 5 bucks a box, I'm gonna save some money. As far as the lacquer is concerned, the new stuff doesnt leave any behind like the old glossy-finish stuff does. Im not defending Wolf brand ammo by any means either. It's about as bottom-shelf as you can get, but I have had some decent results with it.

jmayton · « **Reply #10 on:** October 04, 2008, 04:29:34 PM »

Old Syko, no offense meant. You were just throwing some extra numbers in there that seemed superfluous. Sometimes people type 5000 and mean 50,000 or 95 and mean 9.5. Just wanted to make sure I understood correctly. Plus, I think better in terms of $/round then I can do the math to whatever quantity i want. Just the way my mind works.

Old Syko · « **Reply #11 on:** October 04, 2008, 04:37:30 PM »

No sweat. I just couldn't find my math error. I usually deal with ammo by the thousand whether I'm buying, loading, or shooting.

Savage · « **Reply #12 on:** October 08, 2008, 04:11:40 AM »

Love to save money on reloading compotents by buying in bulk! Bout time to start looking for my next buy. I'm down to about 4k bullets and 4# of powder. Plan on trying the Wolf primers next time I buy. Only have about 3k of primers so it will have to be soon. Reloading stuff is going up in price, and may not be available to us in a few years. I'd like to have enough compotents to feed my guns the rest of my life, and pass some on to my son. Doubt that we will ever have the opportunity to buy surplus ammo at a decent price again. So till then, I'll have to keep on cranking um out!!
Savage

Old Syko · « **Reply #13 on:** October 08, 2008, 06:20:37 AM »

Good luck with the wolf primers. Tried 5 bricks of them, all the same lot number. All were out of round (distorted) and very hard to load. If you do try them and have good luck I would like to hear about it. I was impressed in a bad way but would love to find out mine was a lone incident.

Savage · « **Reply #14 on:** October 08, 2008, 07:34:32 AM »

Quote from: Old Syko on October 08, 2008, 06:20:37 AM

Good luck with the wolf primers. Tried 5 bricks of them, all the same lot number. All were out of round (distorted) and very hard to load. If you do try them and have good luck I would like to hear about it. I was impressed in a bad way but would love to find out mine was a lone incident.

Thanks for the "heads up". I'll buy a couple k and try them out before I buy in large lots!
Savage

teddy12b · « **Reply #15 on:** October 22, 2008, 06:31:19 AM »

I'm still trying to figure out what would be the best all around bullet for me to load up. Last night I loaded 50 rounds of Hornady 55gr soft point with canilever using H322. I'm going to do the same using H4198 too, just to see how the powders compare to one another.

One thing I noticed is the lead on those hornady bullets is really, really soft. The slightest bump would distort the bullet tip. I'm not so sure I shouldn't have tried out the hornady 55gr FMJ's.

Savage · « **Reply #16 on:** October 22, 2008, 07:04:07 AM »

One thing I noticed is the lead on those hornady bullets is really, really soft. The slightest bump would distort the bullet tip. I'm not so sure I shouldn't have tried out the hornady 55gr FMJ's.
I buy the bulk bullets from Midway to load for "Three Gun", plinking or JIC loadings. Got a good deal a while back on a couple k of the Remington PSPs in 55 gr. I store my ammo that is not in mags, on stripper clips sealed in plastic bags. Probably have a few hundred loaded rds stored loose in plastic bags as well. The exposed lead tips are damaged on a lot of the rds. I don't use them for hunting or precision rifle events, so I don't worry about it. The way I shoot, it's a small factor.

Savage

Old Syko · « **Reply #17 on:** October 22, 2008, 08:29:44 AM »

Same here on the bulk bullets. Usually come from Midway or Wideners just depending on who is cheaper. Not a fan of soft points in an AR for the reasons already mentioned though.

BTW, any idea who has strippers in stock. And don't tell me the local gentleman's club.

That's the last thing I need. Everyone seems to be out right now when I call. I'd like to have a couple hundred more.

Savage · « **Reply #18 on:** October 22, 2008, 09:57:16 AM »

BTW, any idea who has strippers in stock. And don't tell me the local gentleman's club. That's the last thing I need. Everyone seems to be out right now when I call. I'd like to have a couple hundred more.

Man! You sure took that opening away from me!
I haven't seen any strippers in a while, I'm hoping to find some at the next gunshow in November. Cheaper than dirt has them for about a dime apiece if they are still in stock. Might order some myself. Gunshows have not been reliable sources for mags and strippers for the last year or so. Here is a link to CTD. You might want to check it out:
http://www.cheaperthandirt.com/ARR037-36.html
Savage

teddy12b · « **Reply #19 on:** October 22, 2008, 12:38:54 PM »

I hate to give away my best source, but ebay has them. I just got around 100 of them, two loaders, and a bandoleer for about ~$15. Hard to beat that.

Savage · « **Reply #20 on:** October 22, 2008, 02:13:16 PM »

Teddy,
Your source is safe. I don't do ebay--------.
Savage

FourBee · « **Reply #21 on:** October 22, 2008, 05:38:29 PM »

Since I've gotten my AR, I can't keep .223 ammo. All my reloading has been for my bolt .223Rem, and a few hundred rounds lasted for months. All that's gone up in smoke when I broke out the AR. I've had to stock up on larger quantities of makin's just to try and cope with appetite of this animal. In the mean time I ran across some Remington UMC 55gr MC at Wally World, 20 rounds for $8.47. Any issues with these for punching holes in paper?

Old Syko · « **Reply #22 on:** October 23, 2008, 12:57:02 AM »

The UMC will run OK but do you realize that's $423 per thousand? Almost 43 cents per round? You really need to start buying in volume or get busy at the loading bench.

FourBee · « **Reply #23 on:** October 23, 2008, 07:45:57 AM »

Yep; I've gotta get on my re-loading stool before I get in the habit of buying ammo. So I'd better be gettin in the mood real quick like.

Savage · « **Reply #24 on:** October 23, 2008, 08:17:28 AM »

FourBee,
Not unusual for an AR "newbie" to start out yanking the trigger and burning lots of ammo. Once you get back to aimed shots, your ammo consumption will go down a bit. Unless I'm pratcing for a carbine match or doing combat drills, I shoot my ARs like any other rifle. Otherwise, I can burn ammo wayyyy faster than I can reload it.
Savage