ENOUGH!!!!!!!

[Dee]

Good post, Dee. Interesting stuff there. I agree with your statement of the Cherokee claiming to be Southern. I actually work with a few blacks who refuse to believe Cherokees (and other blacks for that matter) owned black slaves. I asked them, "Where do you think the plantation system came from?" I certainly wasn't brought over here from England...
After I go watch the election news, I'll come back and look up the story you mentioned. I hope she has a monument dedicated to her heroic deeds. You gotta love it.

She does indeed have a monument. When they built Lake Texoma on her place, her grave was moved by the State of Texas. I have been there more than once.
You might also look up Capt. Bob Lee. Although he is credited with living in Fannin County, he actually lived in a settlement called Lick Skillet, later changed to Pilot Grove. Lee was the Confederate side of a feud that went on for years AFTER his death. It was and still is referred to as the "Lee-Peacock Feud" named after he and Lewis Peacock.

[williamlayton]

Thanks for the reference check on the taxes thing.
The less than bright was taken out of context. it was certainly not meant as a literal view of the mentality of the South.
That said the leadership of the south can be portraid in all their glory as being somewhat less than bright too ignore what was staring them in the face.
If you want too say that the South had the natural resources the North needed, pray tell what.
Food, agriculture, coal, wheat, corn, iron, steel? What did the South have that the North did not have in abundance?
Roads, Railroads, horses, wagons, people, transportation?
Strategic advantages? The South was surrounded?
Grit? Moral? strength of will?
In all catagories the South lagged.
The south was not prepared too win.
It had no plan too win.
It hoped the Union would just go away--and that was less than hope.
The south, with all its pride, was not prepared for war and did not understand that war is hell.
With all its pride the South was defeated before it began the war.
Blessings 

[williamlayton]

Let's look at this Texas thing.
Texas was a Republic before it joined the Union---the only one too do so.
It did not join the Union and retain its sovereignty.
It joined by treaty and gave up its sovereignty.
It still retains the right too divide. It never had the right too secede, IMO.
The west begins at the 100Th meridian--anything east is East Texas.
The majority of Texas' population at the time was in East Texas.
The majority of west Texas was not pro South.
Texas fought more wars/battles during the Civil War against the Comanche and in the Neueces Strip than anywhere in the Civil War. And, continued too do so , in the Strip, until just before WWII. Some would say this war never ended and I would agree.
Blessings 

[williamlayton]

SBG
This is not to doubt your word on the tax thing but I could not find those statics.
I did find a reference for exports. Of the total $352 million in exports, cotton led the way with $192 million.
That is not 80% of the tax however.
If the South did pay 80% of the taxes in 1860, it would appear that that number would come from cotton and textiles which was not the major employer in the US at this time.
I wish I could find the statics you used too see what the basis for the statistics are. I ma sure you found them and are quoting them in context with the findings.
All that I can find is that the North was considerably wealthier than the South and I cannot resolve the statistics used to verify the conclusions you come too----unless it is export taxes.
There was no income tax at the time. All revenue was raised by taxes on goods produced, import and export taxes, as far as I know.
Blessings

[deltecs]

Instead of rehashing old wrongs akin to blacks requesting reparations for slavery, by long dead ancestors and actions not relevant today, here is what we should be discussing.  Does anyone honestly believe that Obama will unite this nation?  Or will another economic civil war be started?

Americas Obituary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

America, as a Democracy died peacefully in her sleep yesterday, November 4, 2008 after a long battle with cancer. She was born on July 4th, 1776. Her parents were the Bill of Rights and The Constitution. For almost two centuries, she was a glorious woman who was revered and respected around the world. She was the most generous and caring woman in the history of the world and will be missed by millions of downtrodden souls who looked to her for a better life and freedom from tyranny. She was a godly woman for most of her life.

She was preceded in death by her founding fathers, millions of brave American soldiers who fought to keep her alive, freedom from tyranny, and the American Constitution.

America was first diagnosed with cancer in the early 1860's
and sought treatment for the cancer from Abraham Lincoln. In the ensuing years, the cancer tore at her fabric and radical Civil War therapy was begun. The treatment lasted for several years and weakened her physically, but did not dampen her spirit. After the treatment, she was cancer free for many years and regained her strength to the point that she was able to successfully fight two world wars and save millions from demented Dictators.

In the late 1930's America lapsed into a severe bout with depression. She went through some hard times, but typical of her resolute strength she survived and emerged even stronger. Wounded and bloodied, she became a savior to the rest of the world.

In the 1960's, the cancer came back and she was treated unsuccessfully by liberals, communists, and terrorists and hack politicians masquerading as Oncologists. In 1981, Mrs. America became a patient of Ronald Regan. Under his treatment and guidance, her cancer was put in remission, and America once again thrived as a Nation. She got that sparkle back in her eyes, and once again her children saw hope for her's and their future.

The cancer that had been in remission reared its ugly head once again in the 2000's, and this time the prognosis was not good. A new form of cancer was beginning to spread throughout Mrs. America's body. This cancer was characterized by secularism, radical liberalism, terrorism, anti-americanism, political correctness, the death of an objective press, and politicians who put themselves above the well being of their mother. In fact, those who were supposed to take care of their mother in her old age, were now guilty of gross negligence and abuse.

A grieving America cried out for those who were killing her children through abortions, to stop. Her cries and pleas for her unborn were ignored and she was scorned for wanting to see her unborn live.

Mrs. America's liberal cancer morphed into a deadly Socialist/Marxist cancer in 2008, and slowly began destroying her. On November 4, 2008, America died peacefully in her sleep as the election results showed that the Obama Cancer had finally took the life of this once brave and caring woman. May she rest in peace.


 

[Ga.windbreak]

Instead of rehashing old wrongs akin to blacks requesting reparations for slavery, by long dead ancestors and actions not relevant today, here is what we should be discussing.  Does anyone honestly believe that Obama will unite this nation?  Or will another economic civil war be started?

Americas Obituary


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

America, as a Democracy died peacefully in her sleep yesterday, November 4, 2008 after a long battle with cancer. She was born on July 4th, 1776. Her parents were the Bill of Rights and The Constitution. For almost two centuries, she was a glorious woman who was revered and respected around the world. She was the most generous and caring woman in the history of the world and will be missed by millions of downtrodden souls who looked to her for a better life and freedom from tyranny. She was a godly woman for most of her life.

She was preceded in death by her founding fathers, millions of brave American soldiers who fought to keep her alive, freedom from tyranny, and the American Constitution.

America was first diagnosed with cancer in the early 1860's
and sought treatment for the cancer from Abraham Lincoln. In the ensuing years, the cancer tore at her fabric and radical Civil War therapy was begun. The treatment lasted for several years and weakened her physically, but did not dampen her spirit. After the treatment, she was cancer free for many years and regained her strength to the point that she was able to successfully fight two world wars and save millions from demented Dictators.

In the late 1930's America lapsed into a severe bout with depression. She went through some hard times, but typical of her resolute strength she survived and emerged even stronger. Wounded and bloodied, she became a savior to the rest of the world.

In the 1960's, the cancer came back and she was treated unsuccessfully by liberals, communists, and terrorists and hack politicians masquerading as Oncologists. In 1981, Mrs. America became a patient of Ronald Regan. Under his treatment and guidance, her cancer was put in remission, and America once again thrived as a Nation. She got that sparkle back in her eyes, and once again her children saw hope for her's and their future.

The cancer that had been in remission reared its ugly head once again in the 2000's, and this time the prognosis was not good. A new form of cancer was beginning to spread throughout Mrs. America's body. This cancer was characterized by secularism, radical liberalism, terrorism, anti-americanism, political correctness, the death of an objective press, and politicians who put themselves above the well being of their mother. In fact, those who were supposed to take care of their mother in her old age, were now guilty of gross negligence and abuse.

A grieving America cried out for those who were killing her children through abortions, to stop. Her cries and pleas for her unborn were ignored and she was scorned for wanting to see her unborn live.

Mrs. America's liberal cancer morphed into a deadly Socialist/Marxist cancer in 2008, and slowly began destroying her. On November 4, 2008, America died peacefully in her sleep as the election results showed that the Obama Cancer had finally took the life of this once brave and caring woman. May she rest in peace.


 

Well said my friend! I was saying almost the same to a friend on the cell tonight. It pains me to my core.

[williamlayton]

Right or wrong that is not the topic of conversation on this forum---as important as it might be.
Blessings

[SouthernByGrace]

WL, you are indeed correct. But I have to put my two cent's worth in here. And this is directed at EVERYONE that agrees with what deltecs just wrote.

If you believe that to be the case, that America is dead, because the majority of her people chose a new doctor, one that is nothing like the ones that had her in the shape she was in in the first place, one so different from all the others that he is hated by only those that fear his treatment, you are indeed free to leave her in peace. Delta's ready when you are.

You are indeed correct about the cancer first manifesting itself long ago in the 1860's, but you are absolutely wrong about from whence it came. The doctor charged with Her care is the culprit in her infection. Dr. Lincoln literally butchered Her very soul, the Constitution, to the point She barely survived. She sought Her treatment from those committed to keeping Her ideals and Her promise alive and well for the future generations. And yes, while the treatment bruised Her badly, it tested Her strength, and She came out of it a much stronger Lady.
     
Because of Mrs. America, we are able to sit here and participate in discussions such as this without fear of retribution. We may not agree with each other on certain aspects of those discussions, but Her Light shines brighter because we discussed, we didn't fight. She hasn't taken her last breath just yet. She showed me some signs yesterday, (Nov.5) that she is still a tough ole girl. She can still bring out the best in all of us.

I am a white man, living in the Deep South; Georgia. In my routine of running errands I noticed something yesterday that struck me. Everywhere I went, everyone, Black, White, Latino,  no matter their political beliefs, seemed a bit kinder. Not arrogant, not smug, they seemed to hold their heads a little higher. They smiled more. They treated everybody with a little more respect, "Yes maam; No sir, May I help you with that?; Let me get that door for you; Thank you; You're welcome."   
Now, while Southern Hospitality has long been a way of life down here, it was more pronounced and more noticeable yesterday. 

To anyone who feels that America is dead, for any reason whatever, I would use the very words of Jefferson Davis, changing only that which serves this occasion, by saying, "If you choose to take the last step which separates you from America, it is your right to go, and I will neither vote one dollar nor one man to coerce you back; but will say to you, God Speed, in the memory of the kind associations which once existed between you and all Americans."

[Ga.windbreak]

WL you are so right so with that in mind I will put my answer in the context of the secession and war we are in debate about in this thread, if I may. I ask your indulgence.

To my fellow Georgian I will reply in this way with hopes that I've not misunderstood his post and in the true spirit of debate and harmony. Which I hope he will except and understand. Just because one may disagree, by disagreeing doesn't make one less Patriotic and in dying doesn't mean one can't be reborn.

I quote from Jefferson Davis:

"if an Abolitionist be chosen President of the United States, you Will have presented to you the question of whether you will permit the government to pass into the hands of your avowed and implacable enemies.....such a result would be a species of revolution by which the perposes of the Government would be destroyed and the ....mere forms entitled to no respect..... Mississippi's patriotism will hold her to the Union as long as it is Constitutional....But if a disrespect for that instrument, a fanatical disregard of its purposes, should ever induce a majority....to by amending the Constitution, to prevert it from its original object, and to deprive you of... equality....I say let the Star of Mississippi be snatched from the Constellation to shine by its inherent light, if it must be so, through all the storms and clouds of war."

In 1861, SouthernbyGrace, our State along with 10 others took you up on that ticket and boarded that flight and took off, when 3 minutes later, on the outbound leg Lincoln fired a stinger missile and the flight crashed and burned. Please don't take me wrong we saw history made on Tuesday night of which I'm very proud and thought that I would never see in my life time. By the same token His social views are the complete opposite of mine and my view of our Constitution and form of government and I would humbly submit that Jeff Davis would agree with me. I would also submit that Mr. Davis would be as proud as I at the advance of said history and would ask why it took so long in coming about. I wish the new President Gods speed; all the while praying that our already reduced civil liberties are not further reduced, which is my greatest fear. You may disagree with me, which is your right, but I would humbly ask that you rethink asking anyone to buy that ticket just because we may disagree; I do not love America less nor want her success any less than you and I'm sure that if all those honorable dead Confederate troops could rise up they would say to you the very same thing and you can't forget they were on that plane. You also, by your post, appear to be an advicate of their cause as am I.

Peace

[SouthernByGrace]

Ga.windbreak, my remarks were directed to the accusation that the Confederacy was the cancer that infected America and that Abraham Lincoln was the one that put Her back on the right track. (paragraph 3) And to the writer's belief that the Confederacy was directly responsible for the death of America (refer to his paragraph 3).
And with his belief that America has died because of this man being elected President, he is free to leave her, without judgment from me, or any persuasion from me to change his mind or his beliefs.
My remarks are also directed to my belief that America is not dead, but very much alive. And while she does get a little banged up from time to time, she can take it, and be the better for learning from her experiences.
If you or anyone else has read more into it than that, it is your misunderstanding, and nothing more.

[Ga.windbreak]

SBG and deltecs, It seems as if I've misunderstood everyone so I ask everyone forgivness and will say no more on this subject. Thank you all.

Peace

[williamlayton]

C'mon GW
My remark only seemed harsh. I wasn't upset and I certainly am not the moderator.
I was enjoying the flow of the conversation and didn't want it broken--so, therefore my post.
I accept all responsibility for this interlude--I would not have posted if I knew it would cause this. I apologize.
Let's get back too the taxes thing.
Blessings

[SHOOTALL]

sbg Abe was the cancer !

[deltecs]

SBG and deltecs, It seems as if I've misunderstood everyone so I ask everyone forgivness and will say no more on this subject. Thank you all.

Peace

Sir, I have no problem with anyone's post regarding this topic.  My only intent was to indicate a possible and potentially probable civil strife again within our country.  I too am very patriotic and would not like to see violent civil strife among our people, yet I fear it may again come to that at some future date.  With this President elect, I surmise it will be nearer than farther.  I did not mean to get off topic, but thought it was relevant to the topic subject.  I too will cease posting on this topic for now.

[Ga.windbreak]

Lordy WL I didn't say I wouldn't post I just wanted to make sure noones toes got stepped on, thats all. I'm fine as wine in the summer time!