Author Topic: Buffalo Classic by Wesson and Harrington (Read 2111 times)

Blackhawker · « **on:** October 31, 2008, 06:04:29 AM »

Hello to all. I am a new member and have just signed in to the forum. I have read many posts and topics on this forum (especially on the Buffalo Classic as I have been in the market for one for several months) and have found it to be very helpful and informative. Recently, I have purchased a Wesson and Harrington version of the Buffalo Classic. The rifle is in very good condition and it came with both barrels; 45-70 and a 38-55. I'm very anxious to shoot it but before I even reload for it I would like to know the strength of the frame (SB1 or SB2). I called the serial number in to H&R and they told me that they cannot tell me the age of the rifle as the serial numbers for Wesson and Harrington rifles are not in their files. Ironically, one H&R rep told me it was a 1960, despite records not being on file. I have a hard time believing this as the rifle has a plastic trigger guard and buffer.

In any case, my question is: Does anyone have any idea how I can determine the age of this rifle by it's serial number and does anyone have any idea as to the type of frame this rifle may have (SB1 or SB2)?

Thanks!
Blackhawker

Spanky · « **Reply #1 on:** October 31, 2008, 07:12:51 AM »

What are the first 2 letters of the SN??

Spanky

Blackhawker · « **Reply #2 on:** October 31, 2008, 07:16:56 AM »

Quote from: spanky9773 on October 31, 2008, 07:12:51 AM

What are the first 2 letters of the SN??

Spanky

The first two letters of the serial number are W and H, followed by a series of six numbers.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #3 on:** October 31, 2008, 07:34:08 AM »

Sorry guys, being able to tell the year of manufacture by the serial number system on a Wesson & Harrington will not work. They all start with WH, only H&R was able to tell you when it was made by the complete serial number, and I undersand Remington does not have or cannot locate that information, or at least they could not about a month ago. I am sure if it is the original 45-70 frame, which is most likely since it is marked "Wesson & Harrington", that it is an SB2 frame but cannot tell you if it will take "high intensity" barrels. I am sure it can handle just about any 45-70 load you would want to subject yourself to while shooting it with that curved steel buttplate....<><....

Spanky · « **Reply #4 on:** October 31, 2008, 10:56:31 AM »

Right you are Andy.

I searched the web trying to find a way to identify it and I couldn't come up with anything.

Sorry Blackhawker.

Spanky

Chas. · « **Reply #5 on:** October 31, 2008, 01:25:07 PM »

Availability of serial number info may depend on who's asking. If the FBI or some such asked, and they couldn't produce it, I suspect there would be some very unhappy folks.

Blackhawker · « **Reply #6 on:** November 01, 2008, 04:20:25 AM »

Thanks for your help you guys. I suppose the age of the rifle isn't as much of a concern to me as is the the general strength of the frame and barrels when shooting reloads. My best guess is that the rifle is probably a 1980's model but I still have no way of determining the frame type.

MSP Ret (sorry, I don't know your actual name), you suggested that the frame is more than likely SB2 but are not certain about the acceptance of high pressure barrels. How does one know if a barrel is a high pressure barrel or not? Sorry for my lack of knowlege but this is my first experience with H&R type firearms such as the Buffalo Classic. I don't mind loading trap-door loads for this rifle in the 45-70 caliber but my biggest concern is loading for the 38-55 barrel. There is not a lot of data out there for this caliber with the exception of very low pressure loads. The 38-55 barrel that came with this rifle looks barely used and I suppose it was ordered at a much later date. Both barrels have a marking of "P" and a "620" on them. The 45-70 barrel has this notation inscripted on it while the 38-55 barrel is stamped. I wonder, does this marking denote whether the barrels are high intensity or high pressure barrels?

quickdtoo · « **Reply #7 on:** November 01, 2008, 05:23:25 AM »

Best guess from previous owners of W&H rifles is they were made in the early to mid 90's, H&R won't fit the asterisk marked high pressure accessory barrels to frames made before 1999. I'd call H&R and ask them if they'll fit a high pressure barrel of your choosing to it, they don't have year of mfr info on it, but they should be able to answer that question, if not, they'll probably just decline to fit it with any high pressure barrel. You can see the appearance differences between SB1 and SB2 frames in the FAQs, it wouldn't be factory fitted to an SB1 frame tho, they have never offered rifle barrels on SB1 frames until this year and then only in two pistol chamberings...... so far.

There's plenty of 38-55 data available, it's all low pressure with a SAAMI MAP of 30kcup, but you need to take some special steps to get it to shoot well due to the overbore barrel and undersized chamber neck, please use the search feature to learn more on that, there are literally hundreds of threads on it, there's a link to an article in the FAQs too.

Tim

http://buffaloclassic.tripod.com/

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/saami_pressures.htm

MSP Ret · « **Reply #8 on:** November 01, 2008, 12:08:42 PM »

The "P" stands for "proofed" which means the barrel was test fired with an extra heavy load ( a "proof" load) at the factory to be sure it would not blow up under excessive pressure, and the "P" is most likely in a circle. I would expect the number 620 to be the last three numbers of the serial number on the frame. That indicates the barrels were factory fitted to that frame. That is a good thing. If that is so, one of the barrels came with the gun and was was ordered and fitted by the factory. No telling for sure which was which without the factory records. I always would have thought the barrel that is stamped is more than likely the barrel that originally came with the gun and the one with the number inscribed (scratched on or inscribed with a vibratory tool) is most likely the one that was later purchased by the original owner from the factory and the factory inscibed the number on the barrel lug after they fitted it. Not always that way and I could be wrong. I also have a Wesson & Harrington Buffalo Classic (45-70) and the last 3 numbers are etched onto the barrel lug. The gun does not have to be limited to trapdoor loads, any lever gun load will easily be safe in it as well. Enjoy it, it is a fine gun. Let us know if the numbers 620 are the last three numbers of the serial number, if they are, all the better for you....<><....

Blackhawker · « **Reply #9 on:** November 01, 2008, 08:58:53 PM »

Tim, thanks for the informatin on the frame types. Likewise, thanks for the info on the 38-55 chambering. I've read a lot of the threads and information you have offered referring to the older barrels that are over bored and have narrow chambers. I hope to have some loads made up soon and get out to the range. I've already slugged the barrel and it's a .379. If I run into problems with chambering I suppose I'll have to do a chamber cast or try the Starline brass remedy. For now I'm hoping for the best at the range and we'll see how she goes from there.

MSP Ret, thank you for your input on the barrel lug markings. YES, you're right, both barrels are marked with the last three numbers of the serial number from the frame. (I don't know why I didn't notice that??) I agree, most barrels that are scribed with a vibratory tool would be "after the fact" add-on's. Whatever the case, I'm glad to see the numbers all match.
I'm also glad to hear that someone else has one of these older Buffalo Classics as well and that the 45-70 doesn't need to be limited to Springfield and trap-door loads. It's always good to know that one has a little room to play with when reloading.

Thanks again to both of you and to everyone else that has offered input. Hopefully I'll be able to offer some commentary or input in the future once I've worked with my new (old) Buffalo Classic.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #10 on:** November 02, 2008, 06:41:26 AM »

Does this gun have the bbl cleaning rods with the bbl's . There would be ferrules on the bbl to hold the rod?? Kurt

Blackhawker · « **Reply #11 on:** November 02, 2008, 01:21:54 PM »

No, no cleaning rods or ferrules. It's just a standard Buffalo Classic.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 02, 2008, 01:23:58 PM »

I'd bet Kurt was thinking of the Shikari made by the original H&R that went out of business in 1986, it had the cleaning rod as described.

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #13 on:** November 02, 2008, 01:36:31 PM »

Yeah, that's what I was thinking too. I just couldn't think of the actual name of that rifle. My Lyman book says that the Shikari needs to stay within the trap-door and Springfield pressure limits.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #14 on:** November 02, 2008, 04:49:31 PM »

That's it I was having a little brain fart but then got to thinking with some of the other things that have turned up ya never know . Remember the 17HMR versa pak??? Still only seen or heard of that ONE of them. Kurt

quickdtoo · « **Reply #15 on:** November 02, 2008, 07:30:53 PM »

MSP musta forgot about what Customer Service told him when he called about fitting other barrels to the WH frames, I know I forgot!!

Tim

Quote from: MSP Ret on August 20, 2008, 09:49:44 AM

Hi henry1, it looks as if we both may be out of luck in tracing the year of manufacture of our "WH" Buff Classics. I just got off the phone with the new H&R site in North Carolina and they were very nice but have no records of years of manufacture of the "Wesson & Harringtons"and therfore will not fit any barrel to those frames nor can they give us any info on them....<><....

Blackhawker · « **Reply #16 on:** November 03, 2008, 04:30:30 AM »

Quote from: quickdtoo on November 02, 2008, 07:30:53 PM

MSP musta forgot about what Customer Service told him when he called about fitting other barrels to the WH frames, I know I forgot!!

Tim

Quote from: MSP Ret on August 20, 2008, 09:49:44 AM
Hi henry1, it looks as if we both may be out of luck in tracing the year of manufacture of our "WH" Buff Classics. I just got off the phone with the new H&R site in North Carolina and they were very nice but have no records of years of manufacture of the "Wesson & Harringtons"and therfore will not fit any barrel to those frames nor can they give us any info on them....<><....

Well then it looks like I was lucky when picking up the rifle I have as it already has both barrels.

PHATINJUN · « **Reply #17 on:** November 03, 2008, 04:45:02 AM »

Blackhawker you have no idea what type of deal I was puttin togeather to try and snatch that from you had they both been the Shikari's. Something like 25/06 357mag 45colt and a 08 45/70 BC. I know they made them in 44mag and 45/70 but was shakin when you mentioned 38/55.

Kurt

By the way congrats on your aquisition sounds like a very fine pair. I got to think they were probly made near the end of H&R (1986) or in the very early 90's. Is'nt there a number that can be called to find out if the gun was stolen and whether it was or was not shouldn't it say when it was manufactured or is that info we don't want big gov to know? Somebody has that info somewhere Kurt

Blackhawker · « **Reply #18 on:** November 03, 2008, 05:24:59 AM »

Quote from: PHATINJUN on November 03, 2008, 04:45:02 AM

Blackhawker you have no idea what type of deal I was puttin togeather to try and snatch that from you had they both been the Shikari's. Something like 25/06 357mag 45colt and a 08 45/70 BC. I know they made them in 44mag and 45/70 but was shakin when you mentioned 38/55. Kurt

By the way congrats on your aquisition sounds like a very fine pair. I got to think they were probly made near the end of H&R (1986) or in the very early 90's. Is'nt there a number that can be called to find out if the gun was stolen and whether it was or was not shouldn't it say when it was manufactured or is that info we don't want big gov to know? Somebody has that info somewhere Kurt

WOW, that would be quite an offer!
Actually, now that I know that H&R can't really help me with dating the rifle and that most people I have talked to about it say that it's comparable to an SB2 in strength, I'm really not as concerned about it's age. From what I have read/heard, it's probably an early to mid 90's model. I'm sure that there is someone or someplace where the actual date of manufacture can be found but for now I'm content.

Thanks for the good wishes Kurt. I can't wait to get out to the range with it. Hopefully the 38-55 chamber doesn't give me too much trouble but there is a lot of info here that has given me good insight on what to do if I do have trouble with it. I'll be sure to report back my results from the range.

MSP Ret · « **Reply #19 on:** November 03, 2008, 07:15:53 AM »

"Quote from: quickdtoo on Today at 01:30:53 AM
MSP musta forgot about what Customer Service told him when he called about fitting other barrels to the WH frames, I know I forgot!!

Tim

Quote from: MSP Ret on August 20, 2008, 03:49:44 PM
Hi henry1, it looks as if we both may be out of luck in tracing the year of manufacture of our "WH" Buff Classics. I just got off the phone with the new H&R site in North Carolina and they were very nice but have no records of years of manufacture of the "Wesson & Harringtons"and therfore will not fit any barrel to those frames nor can they give us any info on them....<><....

"

Quick I did forget that but I don't believe I ever said that H&R would fit other barrels to his Wesson & Harrington frame. Also the fact that the new owners in NC do not know where the Wesson & Harrington records are does not preclude him from fitting proper barrels to the frame, shotgun. low intensity centerfires, and Versa Pak barrels....<><....

Blackhawker · « **Reply #20 on:** November 03, 2008, 08:54:51 AM »

MSP Ret;
I was my understanding that the Buffalo Classic could only be fitted with the two available barrels in which it was designed, that being the 45-70 and 38-55. Does this mean that an owner of an H&R BC could have barrels other than the two mentioned fitted as well?

A second and somewhat related question; could one purchase a barrel and place it on his or her frame (BC, Handi, or other type frame) without having to send it in to H&R for fitting or does H&R have to fit all barrels to a given frame?
I'm just curious in the case that I buy a Handi in the future. I've been a user of T/C equipment for quite some time and with those, one could just order a barrel and drop it in.

quickdtoo · « **Reply #21 on:** November 03, 2008, 09:17:58 AM »

Since I'm retired and MSP is at work, I give my best answer.

The frame of the H&R BC is the same as any other H&R SB2 rifle frame, it's just case colored. Depending on year of mfr, H&R will fit any of their barrels to it(except rimfire and the 10ga based barrels) just as they would any other SB2 frame, it isn't limited to just the 45-70 or 38-55 barrel, it comes in the carbine version now with a 45 Long Colt barrel as well, the 38-55 has been discontinued.

Please see barrel fitting in the FAQs and Help sticky, some barrels will fit fine, others may need some fitting. I have forty-five complete H&R single shots, 4 rimfires and 4 shotguns, the rest are centerfire rifles, about half were bought as parts and put together myself, as I said, many fit with no fitting required, some just a bit of work on the latch shelf, others need shimming or cutting at the pivot. Many members buy second hand barrels in the H&R Classifieds, some fit fine, some don't, if the buyer doesn't feel like fitting it themself, they just sell/trade it again, barrel fitting isn't for everyone.

Having multiple frames can make a big difference when it comes to fitting a used barrel, just more options. An option for unmodified barrels(those that haven't been rechambered or otherwise modified) if the barrel has enough underlug left to be cut again, H&R will fit it, that would depend entirely on how it fits before sending it in, if it almost locks up, it's a prime candidate, but if the action closes completely and the barrel is loose, they won't be able to fit it since they grind the pivot to fit, it would need to be done as shown in the FAQs by shimming which they don't do.

Hope this helps,

Tim

Blackhawker · « **Reply #22 on:** November 03, 2008, 06:15:37 PM »

Tim,
Once again, thanks for the info. It seems that some of you guys are real veterans when it comes to these H&R rifles! I was aware that the BC now comes in 45 Colt and that the 38-55 was discontinued. I was just curious about other calibers which are typically sold on the Handi's. (Question answered...thanks!)

Being new around here I haven't had a chance to look at all of the topics etc, so please forgive me if I've asked a question that has been discussed earlier on another thread or elsewhere. I don't mean to bog the site down with the same old questions. I definitely DO appreciate the references to them however.

Thanks again and I'm really glad I joined the group. Everyone here has been very helpful and nice.