Author Topic: Tim's gold hammer again  (Read 1385 times)

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Offline zoner

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Tim's gold hammer again
« on: November 01, 2008, 05:58:04 AM »
before i do this conversion(install old style hammer/eliminate transfer bar and lifter) there is one more thing I need to get ironed out. After I'm done, with the hammer down (resting on the firing pin) is there a possibility that the firing pin can be broken,bent or damaged by opening or closing the action. Another question I have is the way my new sb2 works the action can't be opened with the hammer cocked. Is this because the trigger extension is bearing on the barrel latch when the hammer is cocked?

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #1 on: November 01, 2008, 06:09:02 AM »
I thought maybe the ejector might damage the firing pin when the action is closed if the hammer wasn't in the half cock position, but on  those I've done, it doesn't hurt it, just pushes the pin in as it rides over the it, all of the ejectors and extractor have a beveled heel that helps prevent damage to the breech face during closing of the action. I agree on the trigger extension.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline zoner

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #2 on: November 01, 2008, 06:24:19 AM »
i have scematics for the old style( before transfer bar) and new style and i notice there is no trigger extension on old style , so.... does that mean you could put them on half cock to open and close action?

Offline Fred M

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #3 on: November 01, 2008, 06:29:11 AM »
I think that gold hammer is a poor substitude for the designed one.

1.The firing pin embedded in the primer can easy break off when the rifle is opened. Since there is no rebounding hammer if you forgot to set the hammer at 1/2 cock.

2. Having the firing pin sitting on live primer is simply asking for an
accident to happen.

3. If you can't manage to use the rifle as designed, buy another type
of action.

Don't do it
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #4 on: November 01, 2008, 06:45:16 AM »
The half cock position works fine, it's just off of the firing pin, not enough to prevent opening the action. Due to the angle of the firing pin, I doubt it's likely that a pin will break due to the scenario Fred presents unless the pin has more protrustion and perforates the primer jamming the pin. If this was a problem, it would be reported on the pre-transfer bar rifles.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline zoner

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #5 on: November 01, 2008, 08:03:07 AM »
thanks guys for the good advice...the problem i am repairing is  a poorly fitted lifter/striker assembly...the transfer bar is so loose on the pivot that it can flop straight to the rear blocking the hammer from going forward...i disassembled my gun( it came this way NIB) and attempted to tighten the fit by peening the pivot pin but i was unable to get the result i wanted, 100% reliability...then i started thinking about eliminating transfer bar......but i think i will go with Fred's idea and send off to brownell's for a new lifter/striker and install it and hopefully be done with it...h+r will fix it if i send it in but i can get a part in a week and do it myself and who knows how long it may take them. I was looking forward to doing a trigger job on this gun but it's so sweet right out of the box( about 3 lbs and crisp) that i'd be a fool to try to improve it

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #6 on: November 01, 2008, 08:13:46 AM »
Be sure to order a spare one while you're at it, it's one of the recommended spare parts to have on hand, along with a firing pin and spring....and hammer spring too, they've been reported to become weak after a few hundred rounds occasionally.  ;) You may want to send H&R an email or call requesting a replacement t-bar for a spare, several members have had problems with the t-bar and called H&R about it, they've sent them a replacement with no problems, but that was Gardner, dunno if Remington will do the same.

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline zoner

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #7 on: November 01, 2008, 10:44:41 AM »
I called them as soon as i discovered the problem but they wouldn't send (or sell ) me that particular part cuz it needed to be "factory fitted" .....they did offer to fix it if i packed it up and sent it to them...looks like a "drop in " part to me

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #8 on: November 01, 2008, 11:03:34 AM »
I do not want to stir the pot on the gold hammer and if it should be done or not. It is with out doubt - the transfer bar is safer.

On the one I did, the spring on the firing pin pushes back the hammer enough so that the firing pin will not protrude past the breech face. It almost will push it back to the "half cock" notch, but not quite. The hammer spring is fairly stiff when it is cocked, but gets weaker as it gets to the firing pin. The momentum of the hammer is what strikes the firing pin and then it rebounds back away just a little, enough so that the firing pin does not stick out. I used the old style double legged spring, but I did my spring a little differently than Tim did his.
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Offline Fred M

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #9 on: November 01, 2008, 05:09:24 PM »
I do not agree that the firing pin return spring will actually push the hammer back. At least mine does not.

If you get light primer indentations because of poor follow through.
The remedy for this is to pull your trigger with your first trigger finger joint not with the soft finger tip.

With this application it is almost impossible not to follow through, it also produces a faster release. Trap and skeet shooters use this  trigger release. It is very positive.

You simply  have to make up your mind that the transfer bar will not beat you.

The Handi rifle was never designed to safely work without the transfer bar. Besides this modification would totally void the warranty. If an accident did happen you be liable and subject to prosecution.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline zoner

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #10 on: November 02, 2008, 01:08:55 AM »
thanks again Fred...even though i firmly believe that safe gun handling is a mental state(in other words you should use intelligence to keep yourself and others safe and NOT rely 100% on ANY mechanical device for safety) having said that the fact remains that the best thing to do is repair my rifle so it functions as it was meant to(replace transfer bar)....now that i'm done with that if i could just find that cinnamon laminate stock i need......

Offline LaOtto222

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #11 on: November 02, 2008, 02:22:13 AM »
I have been setting here thinking if I should reply or not, obviously since you are reading this, I am going to reply.

Fred you are correct on several counts. The present H&R design is with the transfer bar and is not intended for any thing that resembles not having one. On your gun as with my other H&R, the hammer spring will push the firing pin in if the transfer bar is up. I have voided any warranty. I do not recommend the gold hammer solution for anyone, because I am not going to be responsible for their actions or results of their modifications. The present H&R gun is with out a doubt less safe with out the transfer bar than it is with it.

This part is also true - The firing pin spring will and does push the hammer back on my gun, enough so the firing pin does not protrude through the breech face. I do not know if the spring will have a short life. To get this condition, I bent the spring to the point of not having much strength at the up position. I really cut the spring short on the legs rather than heat them and bend them like Tim did. When I did this the spring did not have enough tension to push the hammer up into the half cock position. So I bent it until it had just enough force to push the hammer consistently in the half cock position with out any extra force. It does have a stiff spring action as it approaches the cocked position. It gets it's power through momentum of the hammer, with not much spring action at the striking position. I have shot it maybe 100 times since the modification and have not got a light hit and the spring seems to be holding up fine. Again, it does not stick through the breech face, even when the hammer is at rest against the firing pin.

How I got where I am today
I lightened the trigger to the point of getting light primer strikes or not even a primer strike. Try as I might, I could not get it to be consistent. Some how the transfer bar was not traveling up far enough to get between the hammer and the firing pin. Did it have to do with the trigger not traveling as far to release the hammer or was the trigger so light, that I quit pulling on it? I am not sure on that. Some times I got a strike, but the transfer bar fell down and the primer would protrude through the firing pin hole so that opening the barrel was very difficult. Some times I got no indent whats so ever. Some times it fired OK. The only way I could get it to fire with any consistency was to "stab" the trigger, which forced me to follow through. I tried I really did. But it was still not 100% sure fire. There are several others that have had the same problem. I was not getting very good groups because I was thinking about follow through on the trigger and not on sight picture and the stabbing did not help any either. I do not have a problem with my other Handi, I have never had this condition, but the trigger was not that light either. I could have fixed it my getting a new trigger and not honing it down as far. I had read in the forum about removing the transfer bar. I did not want to give up my very light trigger that I carefully honed down so I thought if I could get rid of the transfer bar, it would solve my problem. I bought the gold hammer, a case hardened hammer (old style), a couple of springs (old style) and a new trigger. When I replaced the hammer and removed the transfer bar, I discovered the trigger would not engage the hammer. So I had to replace the trigger with the new one I purchased. Now I was back to ground zero as far as trigger pull is concerned. I carefully honed down the new hammer, but I did not go as light as I had it before. It has kind of negated my purpose of the gold hammer. I could hone it down some more, but after thinking about it, the Handi is not a bench gun and never will be, so why worry about an extremely light trigger pull? As long as the trigger pull is not very light, I do not think there should be a problem with the transfer bar coming up into position, unless there is some thing wrong with it. I saved all of the old parts and can reverse the process at any time. I may do that before it all over and said. It is real nice not to have the transfer bar, he trigger is extremely crisp, I do now have a low profile hammer to mount the scope lower and I do not have to worry about follow through with the hammer. If I had it to do over, I would have just gotten a new trigger and installed it, leaving the hammer and transfer bar in place. It would have been much easier.

In the recent past I have explained to folks how to fix their light strikes by using the "gold hammer". Fred and several others have voiced their disapproval. I have given this careful thought. I certainly do not want anyone to get into a situation where their gun is unsafe. I feel that mine is and I know how to handle it. I may still reverse it with the transfer bar in place. I realize that not everyone knows how to handle a gun with out a transfer bar. In retrospect, I think they are correct - It should not be done under any circumstance. If you have light primer strikes, get a new hammer or new parts that will fix the problem and leave the transfer bar in.

Sorry for the long post, I hope you read it in whole and understand I am not advocating taking the transfer bar out. I tried a solution to a problem I had, but there are much better ones.

Good Shooting and Good Luck.



 
Great men have vision and resolve to make dreams come true.

Offline zoner

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #12 on: November 02, 2008, 03:42:46 AM »
thank you much sir and i have no problem with the long-winded response...i view it as words of wisdom and agree with you...i will be replacing what i believe to be a defective transfer bar and lifter and using my rifle as it was intended as new....while i see benefits to the conversion it also sounds kind of like opening a can of worms...think i'll pass on it...everybody be safe

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #13 on: November 02, 2008, 04:19:45 AM »
Thanks for the input guys, I added a link to this topic to the hammer modification thread in the FAQs.  ;)

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain

Offline Fred M

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #14 on: November 02, 2008, 05:22:07 PM »
I had wished too that the transfer bar was not there, with an alternate safe firing mechanism. This would involve much more expense.

Like an inertia firing pin with a rebounding hammer activated by a coil spring no exposed hammer and a thumb safety on top of the tang which would lock the firing pin and the trigger. An adjustable trigger. Like an O/U shot gun.

The price would perhaps double or triple..

But as is the Handi system is not really bad and works reliable in most instances. I have reworked, tuned and polished every piece in the action with a farely light trigger pull, peened the transfer bar pin so it does no come apart. Replaced the hammer spring and put in a stronger latch spring. This stuff anybody can do, to smarten up a few hick ups.

My 257Roberts Handi will go after deer in a couple of days, I hope the transfer bar will not let me down lest I need a golder hammer ;D ???.
Fred M.
From Alberta Canada.

Offline quickdtoo

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Re: Tim's gold hammer again
« Reply #15 on: November 02, 2008, 07:34:03 PM »
Have fun filling all those tags, Fred!! ;D

Tim
"Always do right, this will gratify some and astonish the rest" -  Mark Twain